Is This Heretical?

[Papist]

Would it be heresy to pray for protection for someone or group of peoples; that to protect their heart(s) from hardening, in order to have it open to the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church?

[Apotheoun]

Would it be heresy to pray for protection for someone or group of peoples; that to protect their heart(s) from hardening, in order to have it open to the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church?

Praying for the protection of persons is not a problem (see my post #60). Praying for a false religion is problematic, because we should never pray for the protection of error.

 

Praying to protect the hearts of Muslims from hardening so that they may come to the truth that is found only in Christ and His Church is perfectly acceptable. I would even go so far as to say that such a prayer is the duty of a Catholic Christian.

[Papist]

Praying for the protection of persons is not a problem (see my post #60). Praying for a false religion is problematic, because we should never pray for the protection of error.

 

Praying to protect the hearts of Muslims from hardening so that they may come to the truth that is found only in Christ and His Church is perfectly acceptable. I would even go so far as to say that such a prayer is the duty of a Catholic Christian.

 

Yes. Now I believe it comes down to what is the word "Islam" referring to.  Could it possibly meant to refer to the Islam people?

[Apotheoun]

Yes. Now I believe it comes down to what is the word "Islam" referring to.  Could it possibly meant to refer to the Islam people?

The quotation taken at face value is unorthodox, but we would have to talk to Pope John Paul II in order to determine precisely what he meant by the comment. As it stands it is theologically a nonsensical comment, but it was made when the pope was flattering all the various dignitaries present, so I would not give much importance to it.

 

Nevertheless, I would not encourage Catholics to pray that type of prayer. 

Edited April 8, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Papist]

The quotation taken at face value is unorthodox, but we would have to talk to Pope John Paul II in order to determine precisely what he meant by the comment. As it stands it is theologically a nonsensical comment, but it was made when the pope was flattering all the various dignitaries present, so I would not give much importance to it.

 

Nevertheless, I would not encourage Catholics to pray that type of prayer. 

 

Same here. 

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Saying either of those two things would be theologically problematic. One cannot pray for a false religion, but one can pray for the deceived members of a false religion.

 

So for example a prayer that says "protect Muslims from violent exploitation" would be acceptable. Although a better prayer would be to say: "Free all Muslims from captivity to the false religion of Muhammad and bring them to faith in Christ, the only savior of mankind."

Yes the second obviously, maybe the first as well - it's a question of his intent, off the cuff, in a non-native language. That is, if these are even his actual words.

[mortify]

[mod]Unless you'd like to renounce your Catholicity on this phorum, do not post negative criticism of popes on phatmass. - dUSt[/mod]

Edited April 10, 2013 by dUSt

[Nihil Obstat]

[mod]Unless you'd like to renounce your Catholicity on this phorum, do not post negative criticism of popes on phatmass. - dUSt[/mod]

y u change teh subject? You never answered my question above.

Assuming the sedeplenist position, which I think is by far the most reasonable, how should we respond to a widespread crisis of faith?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

No, the saints would never protect an evil ideology, and that is true whether we are talking about Islam and paganism, or Nazism and totalitarianism, or any other false religious or political system. And of course the saints would not protect such evil even if I asked them to do it (something I would never do), nor would they do it even if a bishop or priest asked for such a terrible thing.

 

I never said islam was evil. Our LORD Jesus says in the gospels that many blasphemies will be forgiven except the blasphemey against the holy spirit,whatever that is. Don't be so quick to judge something or somone as evil and not just mis-led, if you don't know the truth how can you be culpible of oposing the truth , in there hearts most are trying there best to do the right thing to the best of there hearts knowledge of experience over time of that which is right or wrong.

 

JC "Those outside of the fold will be judged by the law written on there own hearts."
 

Edited April 9, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

y u change teh subject? You never answered my question above.

Assuming the sedeplenist position, which I think is by far the most reasonable, how should we respond to a widespread crisis of faith?

 

 I see a holy pope with no fear of devil or man. Totaly under the protection of the LORD GOD FATHER,SON and HOLY SPIRIT. Fearless of the will of man or devil. Absolute faith and confidence/trust of the LORDS protection.

 

JC "You will know they are mine by the signs, they will pick up snakes and not be bitten and sleep with lion cubs..."

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I hope one day to walk with such confidence in this valley of shadows and death.  You do remember he was also shot right ?

Edited April 9, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Apotheoun]

I never said islam was evil. Our LORD Jesus says in the gospels that many blasphemies will be forgiven except the blasphemey against the holy spirit,whatever that is. Don't be so quick to judge something or somone as evil and not just mis-led, if you don't know the truth how can you be culpible of oposing the truth , in there hearts most are trying there best to do the right thing to the best of there hearts knowledge of experience over time of that which is right or wrong.

 

JC "Those outside of the fold will be judged by the law written on there own hearts."
 

Islam is evil because it is founded upon an explicit denial of the dogmas of the Trinity and the Incarnation of the Logos. To say anything else is to succumb to theological indifferentism.

 

As far as the sin against the Holy Spirit is concerned, it is the rejection of Christ through final impenitence.

[Apotheoun]

JC "Those outside of the fold will be judged by the law written on there own hearts."
 

Once again you are confusing people with ideologies. I have not said anything about the final end of any particular person, nor will I say anything on that topic, because I have no special insight into the lives of particular persons. Nevertheless, Islam, as an ideological system, presents a false view of both man and God, and as such it is evil, because it draws people away from the Church; while simultaneously - as history shows - causing its misguided followers to persecute the Church.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I hear christianity is on such a rapid increase per capita in the muslim states at present that the persecuters can't kill,beat,rape,torture etc them fast enough. The rapid recent growth of christianity in these areas are being compared to the growth of christianity in the roman empire in the first century or two during herendous percecutions before the emperor constantine made it the official religion.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I say "st christopher pray for us, including enemies of holy  mother church." I say "Sacred heart of JESUS have mercy on us." I say "Immaculate heart of Mary pray for us."

[Apotheoun]

I hear christianity is on such a rapid increase per capita in the muslim states at present that the persecuters can't kill,beat,rape,torture etc them fast enough. It rapid recent growth of christianity in these areas are being compared to the growth of christianity in the roman empire in the first century or two before the emperor constantine made it the official religion.

That is interesting, because I have read the opposite. The number of Christians living in the Middle East for example has fallen from 20% of the population in the early 20th century to less than 5% of the population of the region today.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

And there is nothing contrary to the holy scriptures or sacred tradition in blessed pope benedict saying this, where meant to be praying for such people. Gosh, really.

[KnightofChrist]

y u change teh subject? You never answered my question above.
Assuming the sedeplenist position, which I think is by far the most reasonable, how should we respond to a widespread crisis of faith?

Most crises in the Church today are caused by lack of discipline. The sexual abuse crisis and the liturgical crisis for example can be traced to a lack of discipline. Lack of discipline is a reason why Pro-abortion Catholic lawmakers can receive Holy Communion.

So part of the answer to the question is; the Church must have a revival of discipline in faith and morals.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Most crises in the Church today are caused by lack of discipline. The sexual abuse crisis and the liturgical crisis for example can be traced to a lack of discipline. Lack of discipline is a reason why Pro-abortion Catholic lawmakers can receive Holy Communion.

So part of the answer to the question is; the Church must have a revival of discipline in faith and morals.

 

Hooray, like the revival in the dark ages. Including praying for the enemies of Holy Mother Church.Which i'm sure the church encouraged.

I only know of the Churches plight during the dark ages and the renaissance because recently i have started reading a book on it.

 

Onward christian souls.

JESUS iz LORD.

GOD iz GOOD.

[KnightofChrist]

Hooray, like the revival in the dark ages. Including praying for the enemies of Holy Mother Church.Which i'm sure the church encouraged.
I only know of the Churches plight during the dark ages and the renaissance because recently i have started reading a book on it.

Onward christian souls.
JESUS iz LORD.
GOD iz GOOD.

No. No. No and ahh... no.

Each individual case of the sexual abuse crisis was, on some level, due to a lack of personal discipline. It spread like a cancer throughout the Western Church due to a lack of authoritative discipline. There must be a revival of discipline! Edited April 9, 2013 by KnightofChrist