Since We've Been Talking About Lgbtq Stuff A Lot Lately...

[Apotheoun]

Homosexual acts - in and of themselves - according to the Church's ancient Tradition, cry to heaven for vengeance, because they are contrary to nature as God willed it.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Apotheoun

[arfink]

I am glad that you agree that homosexual acts are gravely immoral and unnatural. More power to you. But alas your posts mix in the same old tripe of how we need to be more "pastoral," as if the modern approach has had any great success over the course of the last generation. Good Lord I have seen people with "Church Militant" flags on this forum support "gay marriage." The Catholic Church really does seem to have a lot of problems at the present time.

 

OK, let me get this straight.

 

I ask for a pastoral approach, meaning, practical things people who like sexually deviant acts can do so that they can break free from their sins, as opposed to simply telling them it's wrong over and over again, and I'm now a modernist? I'm now a supporter of gay marriage? You are really really missing the point here.

[arfink]

Homosexual acts - in and of themselves - according to the Church's ancient Tradition, cry to heaven for vengeance, because they are contrary to nature as God willed it.

 

It's echoing in here...

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I can't even

 

Believe in yourself. Yes you can!

[CatholicsAreKewl]

OK, let me get this straight.

rotfl

[Apotheoun]

OK, let me get this straight.

 

I ask for a pastoral approach, meaning, practical things people who like sexually deviant acts can do so that they can break free from their sins, as opposed to simply telling them it's wrong over and over again, and I'm now a modernist? I'm now a supporter of gay marriage? You are really really missing the point here.

The pastoral approach is to tell people the truth, even when they do not want to hear it. It is pretty clear when looking at our society today that the Church is in trouble when it comes to this issue, and it has only itself to blame because it has not forcefully stated the truth about the harm done by the promotion of unnatural vice as normal. I mean come on, state after state in the Western world is approving "gay marriage." So trying over the past forty years to make things palatable to modern Western ears has been a complete failure. As I said, even on this forum there have been Catholics who have in their posts supported "gay marriage" or "civil unions."

 

Postscript: Arfink you accused me of not reading your posts carefully enough, and not you come out and say that I am accusing you personally of being a supporter of "gay marriage." Where have I said that you support "gay marriage." Please quote the post where I named you as a supporter of that horrible abuse of the law.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

It doesn't have to, man.  (non-consensual) rape is worse than (consensual) homosexual sex, even though both things are gravely sinful.  I'm sorry for you if that's a controversial statement, but I don't think it contradicts the consensus of the Fathers in the slightest (though you do find many varying opinions as to whether one sin is worse than another sin, there are some quotes saying homosexuality is worse than murder, for instance, but I think homosexual rape would definitely be worse than general homosexual relations--none of this is contradicting the consensus of the fathers on this matter)

[arfink]

rotfl

 

I give this props, because you are not Apoth.

[Apotheoun]

It doesn't have to, man.  (non-consensual) rape is worse than (consensual) homosexual sex, even though both things are gravely sinful.  I'm sorry for you if that's a controversial statement, but I don't think it contradicts the consensus of the Fathers in the slightest (though you do find many varying opinions as to whether one sin is worse than another sin, there are some quotes saying homosexuality is worse than murder, for instance, but I think homosexual rape would definitely be worse than general homosexual relations--none of this is contradicting the consensus of the fathers on this matter)

Al, your position is not traditional. It is not supported in the teaching of the Fathers, and because that is the case I cannot support you in your folly.

[Apotheoun]

It doesn't have to, man.  (non-consensual) rape is worse than (consensual) homosexual sex, even though both things are gravely sinful.  I'm sorry for you if that's a controversial statement, but I don't think it contradicts the consensus of the Fathers in the slightest (though you do find many varying opinions as to whether one sin is worse than another sin, there are some quotes saying homosexuality is worse than murder, for instance, but I think homosexual rape would definitely be worse than general homosexual relations--none of this is contradicting the consensus of the fathers on this matter)

None of the Fathers ever minimized the gravity of homosexual activity as a sin that brought about the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, and they never mention "consent" as an issue.

[Aloysius]

Al, your position is not traditional. It is not supported in the teaching of the Fathers, and because that is the case I cannot support you in your folly.

so are you saying that homosexual sex is worse or equivalent to homosexual rape?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Aloysius

[Ice_nine]

Homosexual acts - in and of themselves - according to the Church's ancient Tradition, cry to heaven for vengeance, because they are contrary to nature as God willed it.

 

what about masturbation? Isn't that use of the sexual faculty contrary to nature? Why doesn't it cry to heaven, because almost everyone has done it?

[HisChildForever]

I am glad that you agree that homosexual acts are gravely immoral and unnatural. More power to you. But alas your posts mix in the same old tripe of how we need to be more "pastoral," as if the modern approach has had any great success over the course of the last generation. Good Lord I have seen people with "Church Militant" flags on this forum support "gay marriage." The Catholic Church really does seem to have a lot of problems at the present time.

 

If you aren't pastoral with this particular population you're likely to drive them away from the Church, not towards Her. It's on thing to tout cold hard facts until you're blue in the face, another to reinforce love and compassion alongside Church teaching.

[Apotheoun]

so are you saying that homosexual sex is worse than homosexual rape?

Are homosexual sex and homosexual rape grave sins? Yes. Does homosexual rape have greater gravity? Yes, although both acts are gravely immoral. Nevertheless, the Church's Tradition teaches that homosexual acts (whether consensual or not) are sins that cry to heaven for vengeance. That is the Tradition, whether you like it or not.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Apotheoun

[arfink]

The pastoral approach is to tell people the truth, even when they do not want to hear it. It is pretty clear when looking at our society today that the Church is in trouble when it comes to this issue, and it has only itself to blame because it has not forcefully stated the truth about the harm done by the promotion of unnatural vice as normal. I mean come on, state after state in the Western world is approving "gay marriage." So trying over the past forty years to make things palatable to modern Western ears has been a complete failure. As I said, even on this forum there have been Catholics who have in their posts supported "gay marriage" or "civil unions."

 

Postscript: Arfink you accused me of not reading your posts carefully enough, and not you come out and say that I am accusing you personally of being a supporter of "gay marriage." Where have I said that you support "gay marriage." Please quote the post where I named you as a supporter of that horrible abuse of the law.

 

I didn't say we can't. But I think we also need to be aware that forcefully preaching this will not be effective on its own. There needs to be more to our approach. Not something different, something more.

 

Saying we do not approve of sin, and shouting it as loudly as possible, and voting to prevent people from sinning, will do nothing to keep them from sinning. We can do more, with individuals, to break them out of their sins. We must do it. That is what I'm talking about.

 

Prohibition did nothing to stop people from drinking. Outlawing homosexual sex will also not stop people from doing it, not the way our society is set up now. We need to do other things too.