Dating And Discernment: Pros And Cons

[MarysLittleFlower]

Wearing a covering on one's head when it is not required means one has engaged in a fashion choice.  Of course, it can be considered unfashionable too.  :)

 

Personally I don't wear it for fashion... I wear it because of my spirituality and because I attend the Latin Mass, where it is an expectation to wear it. When I wear it to the OF, it's just a personal way of honouring the Blessed Sacrament. :) maybe this might not be agreed with by all, but even if it's not mandated by Canon Law at this moment, it's still mentioned in Scripture and found within the tradition of the Church.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I was thinking about the habits and bridal dresses idea... the time I heard about this idea was in relation to Dominican Sisters' habits. I didn't take it to mean that a woman can't be a bride of Christ without a habit (like in the case of consecrated people in the world), but like this is a part of the spirituality of the Sisters. First I thought it was all Sisters who thought that way, later I heard that it's only Dominicans, I dont know the case really. I don't have any issue with that personally.

[Sister Marie]

I was thinking about the habits and bridal dresses idea... the time I heard about this idea was in relation to Dominican Sisters' habits. I didn't take it to mean that a woman can't be a bride of Christ without a habit (like in the case of consecrated people in the world), but like this is a part of the spirituality of the Sisters. First I thought it was all Sisters who thought that way, later I heard that it's only Dominicans, I dont know the case really. I don't have any issue with that personally.

 

That's somewhat of the problem I'm seeing though.  I think the sisters need to be careful to present this as their own understanding and not church teaching as it has no basis in church teaching.  

 

I have no issue with them believing that but it has spread among women who are discerning with them as if it is "Gospel truth" when its just an aspect of their personal spirituality.  

 

I don't view my habit as a wedding dress but I've had many women quote this "wedding dress" statement as if it is the true definition of a habit according to church teaching and as if I'm denying an important truth when I say that I don't feel the same way.  

[abrideofChrist]

That's somewhat of the problem I'm seeing though.  I think the sisters need to be careful to present this as their own understanding and not church teaching as it has no basis in church teaching.  

 

I have no issue with them believing that but it has spread among women who are discerning with them as if it is "Gospel truth" when its just an aspect of their personal spirituality.  

 

I don't view my habit as a wedding dress but I've had many women quote this "wedding dress" statement as if it is the true definition of a habit according to church teaching and as if I'm denying an important truth when I say that I don't feel the same way.  

 

Not to mention the fact that it is problematic that it is "Dominican" sisters who are pulling the Bride of Christ imagery or calling their habits wedding dresses when it goes against true Dominican heritage.  The Dominicans rejected the Consecration of Virgins when they were founded.  Only a handful of their (royal) nuns ever received it and for exceptional reasons.  For the most part, they were deliberately founded to exclude the whole Bride of Christ concept in favor of vowed religious life.  Enter in the religious communities of active Dominican sisters and it is rather laughable that they are trying to resurrect a concept that their cloistered counterparts rejected centuries ago from the get-go.

[abrideofChrist]

Regarding the L.C. priest... I don't think I would want to reject anything he would say just because the order that he's in has had some difficulties. I know some really good L.C. priests.

 

One should be very careful in reading vocations material from a person who may have been complicit in the sinful dealings of the founder and may have been a part of the continuing cover up, particularly since part of the scandal is in the way they recruit and retain members.  There are some very good websites that describe how cult like both the LCs and RCs are, and the damage they have done to both members and donors.  A lot of what sounds really good may not be so good, and may be meant in a way different than what the Church interprets the phrases to mean.  Just as Mormons have phrases that sound Christian but are totally non-Christian, so do some of these organizations with strong cult like signs.  And yes, many have had to have cult deprogramming after leaving LC/RC and therapy for PTSD.

[savvy]

 

I do agree that different communities have different views on the habit. The whole purpose of the habit is that everybody wears the same thing. So if everybody wore a certain colour code, it would be a habit. But, I do not see anything wrong with the bride of Christ imagery, because some of us have truly been called that way. So, we are not making things up.

 

 

 

 

[Sister Marie]

 

 

I do agree that different communities have different views on the habit. The whole purpose of the habit is that everybody wears the same thing. So if everybody wore a certain colour code, it would be a habit. But, I do not see anything wrong with the bride of Christ imagery, because some of us have truly been called that way. So, we are not making things up.

 

 

Hey Savvy... I think this conversation is getting confusing because there are a two different bridal conversations happening at once.  One is about religious being Brides of Christ (that part is beyond me and because I don't identify primarily with that title I don't have any comment on the Bride of Christ stuff) and the other conversation is about sisters saying, "The habit is a wedding dress."  The former has roots in the liturgy and practice of religious life while the latter has no basis in current or past understanding of religious life.  The imagery of the bride of Christ is not made up but the idea that the habit is a wedding dress has no basis anywhere but from the sisters who are promoting it.  

 

It is fine for one community to say "We view our habit as our wedding dress."  It is not fine to say "Habits are wedding dresses and who wouldn't want to wear their wedding dress every day?"  The idea that the habit is a wedding dress is an invention of some contemporary sisters.  That's fine but they need to make sure that the people they are speaking with know that this is a new perspective and not something that the Church has ever declared about habits.  It would be like me saying "All habits should be blue in imitation of the Blessed Mother" because my community wears blue for that reason.  It's a tradition in my community to wear blue for the Blessed Mother but I don't expect sisters in other communities to agree and change their habits, nor do I judge them because they wear white or brown or gray or red...

 

I hope that cleared up the conversation a little bit.

[abrideofChrist]

I don't view my habit as a wedding dress but I've had many women quote this "wedding dress" statement as if it is the true definition of a habit according to church teaching and as if I'm denying an important truth when I say that I don't feel the same way.  

 

Yes.  This is the exact same problem consecrated virgins living in the world face.  When all kinds of active religious start claiming they are "Brides of Christ" and implicitly recruit people who have a vocation to be a bride of Christ, the issue I have with this is that active religious are none of them primarily brides of Christ but vowed disciples of Christ.  Active religious are not permitted to become brides of Christ in the fullest most perfect sense.  They are, however, allowed to make religious profession.  Then you get people who equate "bride of Christ" with people who wear habits and who claim their habit is a wedding dress as a result of this dissemination of a private spirituality.  Then in turn you get people who think consecrated virginity is not for them because they are not really anything because THEY don't wear habits (wedding dresses) and this bride of Christ thing is only sentimental cause only religious are truly brides of Christ.

[Sister Marie]

I think too when I, as a religious, say that I don't identify with the term "Bride of Christ" people think maybe I'm not taking my vocation seriously or maybe I'm not as dedicated to Christ or maybe my relationship with Him isn't as strong or as intimate as it should be.  My ring is engraved with the latin "to you I am espoused" and I believe those words with all my heart.  That doesn't mean I find my identity in the term "Bride of Christ.".  I see myself as a woman vowed to follow Christ, in imitation of his life, in service of his people, and in love with Him.  The most important part of my life is living the evangelical counsels of chastity, poverty, and obedience.  Everything else is in service to that; my apostolate, my communal life, my prayer life, what I wear... They are the means to reach the end which is growth in holiness through profession of public vows.  

 

And, just like I wish other religious would do, I am saying all of this as my own personal perspective on religious life and not as any definitive statement for other religious.

[abrideofChrist]

Sister Marie,

 

I totally get where you're coming from.  The Church herself emphasizes the discipleship part of life lived according to the evangelical counsels, rather than emphasizing any kind of bridal imagery.  I think this was a wise move on the part of the Church because the Church wanted to make the distinction clearer that the vows are the heart of the vocation to religious life, not a bridal spirituality.  Yes, the male religious or female religious reflects the Church as Bride more fully than your average baptized person... but discerning religious life is primarily about whether one is called to take on these specific obligations as a way of following Christ.  This is a lot different than discerning a spousal vocation- vocation to marriage or consecrated virginity.  I encountered this in my own discernment process.  Is a specific way of life, a particular charism my call?  Is being married to a man whom I love tenderly in God my call?  Or is being married to Christ directly my call?  Some active religious communities want you to think that the heart of discerning their way of life is whether you are called to be a bride.  It isn't.  It is whether to follow a charism.

 

ABC

Edited July 21, 2013 by abrideofChrist

[Sister Marie]

Sister Marie,

 

I totally get where you're coming from.  The Church herself emphasizes the discipleship part of life lived according to the evangelical counsels, rather than emphasizing any kind of bridal imagery.  I think this was a wise move on the part of the Church because the Church wanted to make the distinction clearer that the vows are the heart of the vocation to religious life, not a bridal spirituality.  Yes, the male religious or female religious reflects the Church as Bride more fully than your average baptized person... but discerning religious life is primarily about whether one is called to take on these specific obligations as a way of following Christ.  This is a lot different than discerning a spousal vocation- vocation to marriage or consecrated virginity.  I encountered this in my own discernment process.  Is a specific way of life, a particular charism my call?  Is being married to a man whom I love tenderly in God my call?  Or is being married to Christ directly my call?  Active religious communities want you to think that the heart of discerning their way of life is whether you are called to be a bride.  It isn't.  It is whether to follow a charism.

 

Regards,

ABC

 

I think you  may want to say that some active religious communities want you to think this.  As an active religious in an apostolic community the vows have always been the focus of my formation and religious life and the same has been true of the wonderful women religious with whom I have lived and served.  There are some appropriate expressions of love for Jesus as an intimate other like in the engraving on our ring and in the words spoken at the profession liturgy) but it is not the focus or the summit of our religious lives.   The vows and the living of those in a particular spiritual and communal tradition are the central tenants of our lives together.

 

Thanks for this discussion.  I wish I knew more about consecrated virginity than I do but your posts and the posts of the other consecrated virgins are always enlightening. 

[abrideofChrist]

I think you  may want to say that some active religious communities want you to think this.  As an active religious in an apostolic community the vows have always been the focus of my formation and religious life and the same has been true of the wonderful women religious with whom I have lived and served.  There are some appropriate expressions of love for Jesus as an intimate other like in the engraving on our ring and in the words spoken at the profession liturgy) but it is not the focus or the summit of our religious lives.   The vows and the living of those in a particular spiritual and communal tradition are the central tenants of our lives together.

 

Thanks for this discussion.  I wish I knew more about consecrated virginity than I do but your posts and the posts of the other consecrated virgins are always enlightening. 

 

Yes, I edited that as soon as I noticed I hadn't originally written "some". 

 

As for the vocation- the very best source for understanding it is the Rite itself.  The Introduction, the Homily, and the Prayer of Consecration are very beautiful and informative. 

[Pax_et bonum]

Yes, we could change things for our modern traditionalist sensibilities.  Let's look at a few terms that we can change.

 

"Clothing".  Let's stop using this to refer to the ceremony of someone receiving a habit from the Church and instead let's use that term for modestly dressing.  After all, we do "clothe" ourselves, do we not? 

 

"Investiture"  Let's stop using this to refer to the ceremony of someone receiving a habit from the Church and instead let's use this term to refer to something like supporting bonds for convents.
 

Veiling is a specific act of the Church.  It has a special significance.  Let's keep it that way.  And by the way, not all religious communities for women have veils.  Interestingly, they are all pretty much apostolic communities.  Like the Franciscans I saw who have a tunic and hood and who keep their hair short.  From a distance they looked like friars. Or the sisters from somewhere in Ohio who wear a blue suit with a blue hat (and maybe even gloves!).

:huh: Clothing and investiture do have meanings outside of receiving the habit. That doesn't mean we can't use them for receiving the habit too. ??? Words can have more than one meaning, so I don't get your point. :huh:

[abrideofChrist]

:huh: Clothing and investiture do have meanings outside of receiving the habit. That doesn't mean we can't use them for receiving the habit too. ??? Words can have more than one meaning, so I don't get your point. :huh:

 

Shrug.  We can discuss the meanings of words all day long and not keep to the point of this thread which is discernment and dating.  Yes, words can have more than one meaning.  But we should use some words more carefully than others because of the great potential for misleading people.  Just because you object to my requesting people to restricting the word "veiling" to those who have been conferred the veil by the Church or acknowledge that the words clothing and investiture can have multiple meanings doesn't mean that Catholics shouldn't automatically be able to use the word clothing and have it understood to mean the habit-bestowing ceremony.  Veiling should bring to mind the sacred ceremonies of the conferral of the veil upon the virgin and upon the nun and not the comparatively trivial practice of some women to wear something upon their hair.  "Religious" in discernment terms usually refers to members of religious institutes not to pious "religious" people.  Sure, we can be relativist and say anything can mean anything, but if we as Catholics stoop to that, then nothing means anything.