Dating And Discernment: Pros And Cons

[inperpetuity]

I wasted a lot of time "dating" and my heart was indeed divided and it ended up taking many acts of self-denial, because deep down I knew that marriage was not my vocation, yet on a natural level the desire for human companionship was also very strong. It took many years to become free enough to discern my vocation in peace.  Our modern world does not encourage virtuous relationships and it is very difficult for young people to navigate through their own desires while allowing virtue to govern them let alone with the added in your face influence of our pleasure obsessed culture.  This is not just speaking from my own experience but also from what I see and many other young people I have known over the years many of them Catholic.  In most cases the family is no longer the primary influence in young peoples' lives, the media is, so yes I agree with Br. JP, a vocation is best preserved and followed by protecting it and it really helps if parents understand this.  Was it St. Bernard who said that he believed that 1 in 3 people have a vocation to the religious life or priesthood?  I think it's more like 1 in 20,000 now who ultimately end up giving their lives to God.

[inperpetuity]

I think it's necessary to add to the above that although I in some ways have had regrets about the turns my life took and the delay of my vocation, God has gone out of His way so to speak to lavish me with His love and mercy in ways I could not have imagined.  He has made it very clear to me that although things haven't turned out the way I would have wanted them to, that He is quite capable of making up for lost time and that I have only to trust in Him.  :love:

[abrideofChrist]

I wasted a lot of time "dating" and my heart was indeed divided and it ended up taking many acts of self-denial, because deep down I knew that marriage was not my vocation, yet on a natural level the desire for human companionship was also very strong. It took many years to become free enough to discern my vocation in peace.  Our modern world does not encourage virtuous relationships and it is very difficult for young people to navigate through their own desires while allowing virtue to govern them let alone with the added in your face influence of our pleasure obsessed culture.  This is not just speaking from my own experience but also from what I see and many other young people I have known over the years many of them Catholic.  In most cases the family is no longer the primary influence in young peoples' lives, the media is, so yes I agree with Br. JP, a vocation is best preserved and followed by protecting it and it really helps if parents understand this.  Was it St. Bernard who said that he believed that 1 in 3 people have a vocation to the religious life or priesthood?  I think it's more like 1 in 20,000 now who ultimately end up giving their lives to God.

 

Seems to me that if it is difficult for young people to navigate through their own desires and our culture is broken, that it would be even more important for a person to wait to join a religious community or seriously discern one until they were mature enough to handle the world and the world of dating. Otherwise, I don't think we can take the universal call to holiness very seriously.

Edited July 15, 2013 by abrideofChrist

[Sister Marie]

I don't see why we can't all say that God works in each person's life differently and that each of our paths to our vocations will be different.  Depending on age, maturity, family background, social norms and culture some people may really need to date before they enter.  Some may not.  Some may date even though they don't need to and end up having their lives enriched by God's grace in the experience.  Let's not limit the many ways God can work in our lives.  

 

Inperpetuity, I affirm your experience but it is different from mine.  My heart was set on following God's will while I was dating and when it became apparent to me what God's will was, I continued to try to follow him with singleness of heart (or as much of that as fallen humans are able!) outside of a relationship.  However, that doesn't mean that your experience wasn't just as valid and true as mine was.  

 

Imagine if this thread was focused on the topic of "human relationships and God's call to religious life" and we were all able to share how God spoke to us and through whom to show us that we were called to religious life.  I think if that were the case we would be benefiting from sharing our prayer lives, our discernment, our journeys to religious life, our hopes, our fears, and all the wild ways God has worked in our lives.  It would be so enriching and edifying!!  It would build each of us up, regardless of our experience, instead of just being a "to date or not to date" discussion.  

 

Don't get me wrong - there isn't anything wrong with having the discussion... its just that this topic could be discussed in a more beneficial way.  

 

Friar, I am glad you are here and are expressing your opinion on this even though I disagree with you but I was disappointed that you didn't respond at all to my post.  Maybe as you read through the thread you missed it.  I know sometimes I do that as well especially when I'm busy with something else!  I look forward to continuing to hear your thoughts and reflections.

[tinytherese]

If you're open to the priesthood or religious life, then at least let your date know that it's a possibility.

 

I met a guy who was dating a girl who was everything he wanted in a wife and out of nowhere she told him that she was dumping him and joining a religious community. He was shocked and heart-broken.

[Little Flower]

If you're open to the priesthood or religious life, then at least let your date know that it's a possibility.

 

I met a guy who was dating a girl who was everything he wanted in a wife and out of nowhere she told him that she was dumping him and joining a religious community. He was shocked and heart-broken.

Too lazy to go back through and find the post, but someone linked to a story about a guy wanting a VDP. Thats what I want!!!! Except I don't know anyone around who I feel like I could do that with. The only cute guys around here have no morals. Or have no interest in me ;)

[Sister Marie]

What is a VDP?  I feel like I should already know this...  :unsure:  haha

[Little Flower]

What is a VDP?  I feel like I should already know this...  :unsure:  haha

Vocational Discernment Partner. Actually I had never heard the term before I read that link, so I'm not sure if its a real term or just something they made up. But of course, people always are having to explain stuff like that to me so it wouldn't surprise me if its actually a popular term.

[Sister Marie]

Haha, okay, thank you Little Flower... I feel better that you didn't know it at first either!  

[inperpetuity]

Seems to me that if it is difficult for young people to navigate through their own desires and our culture is broken, that it would be even more important for a person to wait to join a religious community or seriously discern one until they were mature enough to handle the world and the world of dating. Otherwise, I don't think we can take the universal call to holiness very seriously.

Well, the if isn't the problem, all you have to do is open the newspaper or go to Walmart or even a Catholic church on Sunday for that matter.  The culture being what it is now aside I think original sin and weak human nature is why St. Alphonsus and others have written what they did on this topic. Saints and doctors apparently thought it necessary to address.   I'm not sure I understand what the "world" of dating is.  I don't think that because someone doesn't date in order to preserve their vocation that that necessarily means they are immature or somehow incapable of taking the call to holiness seriously.  Self-knowledge is actually a sign of spiritual maturity, and of course we can't forget that Satan is real and actually can and does tempt even mature people to do stupid things.  Preserving oneself or one's child from the occasion of emotional entanglements until they are able to make a decision about their life and their vocation is a good thing.  Let's face it when people, parents thought it important to do things like not allowing teens to date without supervision, we ended up with many saints, so I don't think Catholics of the past were somehow less capable then we are of taking the call to holiness seriously as though we moderns are somehow more mature than those people back there in the "dark ages".  This is nothing new, btw.  I would have agreed with you when I was 15.

[Chiquitunga]

Too lazy to go back through and find the post, but someone linked to a story about a guy wanting a VDP. Thats what I want!!!! Except I don't know anyone around who I feel like I could do that with. The only cute guys around here have no morals. Or have no interest in me ;)

 

'Twas here :like:

Finally, I just remembered this interesting story on this blog I read a while back, related to all of this, http://seraphicsinglescummings.blogspot.com/2011/03/will-you-be-my-vdp.html

 

I believe the author of that story made up the term VDP, but the thing is, the point of it was to say that that particular kind of relationship is not a good thing... it's like using someone  :(  I'm not saying that was the kind of relationship anyone here had, but the characters in the story. Sister Marie's relationship sounded nothing like this at all, to be clear. But apparently this is the type of relationship some people discerning and dating have.. or it could fall into/resemble this a bit, and it's not fair nor charitable to do that to someone.

[Pax_et bonum]

[Mike:] "Well, it's when you're trying to figure out if you're called to be married or a priest or what. I mean, obviously as Catholics we totally reject that whole stupid campus hook-up culture and just, you know, concentrate on discerning our vocations. And it's way easier to do that with another person. It's, like, by going out with you, I would figure out if I'm called to be a husband and father, and I think I would make a great husband and father, or a priest, who, you know, technically should have made a great husband and father if he hadn't become a priest, and you would figure out if you were called to be a nun or what." ...

 

"That's the beauty of it," said Mike. "You represent women in general for me, and I represent men in general for you."

 

"Like in hook-up culture," said Katie.

 

Mike blinked.

 

"Excuse me?"

 

"Well, it's like hook-up culture, isn't it? You use me--as a woman--for something, and I use you--as a man--for something. As a means to an end."

 

Thankfully I've never heard of this before either. That sounds completely awful, and it's definitely a form of use. It may be helpful to have a friend of either sex that you could talk to about discernment stuff, but this "VDP" concept is not the way to go. You can't discern a vocation in general. The idea of marriage, priesthood, or consecrated life can be appealing, but you don't just discern you're called to one of those in general. There's so much wrong with the concept that I can't even. LF, you know I love you, but this just doesn't sound like a good idea.

[abrideofChrist]

Well, the if isn't the problem, all you have to do is open the newspaper or go to Walmart or even a Catholic church on Sunday for that matter.  The culture being what it is now aside I think original sin and weak human nature is why St. Alphonsus and others have written what they did on this topic. Saints and doctors apparently thought it necessary to address.   I'm not sure I understand what the "world" of dating is.  I don't think that because someone doesn't date in order to preserve their vocation that that necessarily means they are immature or somehow incapable of taking the call to holiness seriously.  Self-knowledge is actually a sign of spiritual maturity, and of course we can't forget that Satan is real and actually can and does tempt even mature people to do stupid things.  Preserving oneself or one's child from the occasion of emotional entanglements until they are able to make a decision about their life and their vocation is a good thing.  Let's face it when people, parents thought it important to do things like not allowing teens to date without supervision, we ended up with many saints, so I don't think Catholics of the past were somehow less capable then we are of taking the call to holiness seriously as though we moderns are somehow more mature than those people back there in the "dark ages".  This is nothing new, btw.  I would have agreed with you when I was 15.

 

I don't deny that we live in a world of temptations.  But what I am saying is that a person who is not mature enough to date in a grace-filled manner is not mature enough to enter a religious community or seminary.  If a person cannot live a single life virtuously in the world, that person surely cannot live a virtuous life in religion.  Likewise, one who is not able to live chastely as a single person may find it difficult to live chastely even in marriage. 

 

Self knowledge does not arise out of a vacuum.  Other people's interactions help bring home truths about the self.  Religious life is not an escape for the immature.  Many of the priests and religious I know who fell "knew" their theology but not their hearts.  They didn't have emotional IQ know how.  I would rather have a pastor who knows where to draw lines than one who hides because he is scared of women and sees them as "temptresses" or one who naively thinks his collar and profession is going to save him from any temptation.    The two dangers are over-scrupulosity and the lack of "fence building". 

 

Thanks to my own dating experiences I am much better equipped to handle the different very attractive men I encounter in a chaste loving way as the Lord's bride.  Authentic discernment is difficult but it is more rewarding than superficial discernment in which fear of "losing a vocation" makes it possible for an erroneous choice to be made because of a refusal to consider something other than that which one sets one's heart on.  If a person can chastely navigate through the dating process (meeting new people, having casual pure dates) then they can better know through experience what to do as a married person or as a priest or as a consecrated person. 

 

Remember, for the good soul, the devil doesn't usually tempt through the obvious.  A chaste person is not going to lust over the scantily clad street walker or allow for propositions.  It's the subtle stuff that the devil pushes through that experience can help alert one to potential dangers.  That woman who displays increasing signs of interest.  That man who behaves or talks in a certain way.  I know a priest who is all but married to a married woman. Of course their relationship is "canonized" under the guise of "ministry".  She spends more time with him in person and on the phone working on their "ministry" together than she does with her husband and children.  They are always seen together.  This is no different than the married man who gets all his emotional support from a sympathetic coworker.  The path to infidelity is not usually a blatant proposition but a series of small things.  Once you have begun to have the other in your mind and it is hard to focus on your duties or that person is the first you think of to share a thought or experience, you are dangerously close to acting against your vows. 

 

Those coming from broken families especially need to learn how to express and receive love in appropriate ways and not run to a seminary or convent or jump into marriage in their wounded condition. The problem with following the advice of the saints who urge people to flock to religious life is that we are no longer in a society of mature people.  Hence, a lot of religious communities are messed up due to unbalanced persons in power, a lot of marriages are messed up because of the husband and wife's upbringing, and the same goes for the priesthood.  What we need is strong faithful people who are mature and balanced.  These are the people in a position to discern a vocation.

[Pax_et bonum]

This topic reminds me of a miniseries we watched in a high school theology class: "God or the Girl." Has anyone else seen it? There's a few clips on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCAnHGZDwg8

 

[spoiler]None of the four guys whose discernment is followed actually became priests which is kind of interesting.[/spoiler]

Edited July 16, 2013 by Pax_et bonum

[FFI Griswold]

Ave Maria! Happy feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel!

Here are two young priests who seem to have made an extensive, multi-part series on discernment, with the following segment specifically on dating.

 

Pre-discernment phase: Dating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pouav-eWQeQ

"St. Ignatius says that if you want to know God's will for your life, you've got to have freedom of heart. If you're in a dating relationship.. your heart is not free.. all these dating thoughts are running through your head."

"The pre-discernment stage is not the time to date. "

"World experience like traveling, working, volunteering, etc. is not the same thing as dating. In dating you begin to give your heart to someone.. now is not the time.. You need to put that on hold for a while."

"Not all experiences are going to help you know God's will. Some are going to draw you away from God's will.. Is this experience going to help me, or cause confusion for me?"

(Father's testimony of dating in college) "When I thought about my future, I thought about it through the lens of marriage, children, job, etc. When we broke up and after I got over that relationship, I finally had the freedom to look seriously at the priesthood, and the desire for the priesthood came out of my heart, because my heart was free.

"The Council of Trent says that the consecrated state is the more perfect state.. Not that they're better people than married people, but that the state itself is more perfect."

"Marriage belongs to the natural world, so everyone has, in some sense, a desire for marriage and familiy, so I don't necessarily need to discern that because it's already built into me, into the human person. What I do need to discern is if God is calling me out of the natural state to the supernatural state of consecration. First you discern consecrated life, and if God is not calling you to it, then and only then can you begin to date and pursue marriage. This way you can keep your heart free until you're sure that God is not calling you to consecrated life."
 
"If I'm dating someone and thinking about consecrated life, it is not fair to them. They are thinking about marriage and kids.. If I put them through this, it is not being their friend, it is not loving them.. The reality is, if you're dating someone, take a break. Tell them you need space, you need time, you need to think."

"If you're not dating someone, don't start. Don't go out flirting, etc., focus on God. You can still have friends and build healthy relationships.. in a modest and prudent way."

"This is why a spiritual director is so important, so they can guide you and advise you if a relationship is getting dangerous."

"One last situation which may be an exception: They've gone through pre-discernment, they've built up a strong prayer life, intellectual formation through reading, etc., frequented Sacraments, visited communitities, etc., and are still unsure - in that case, it may be possible to date, but as an exception."

 

 

This last scenario sounds like what Sr. Marie may have gone through, but note how it is an exception, only to be considered in certain scenarios under careful spiritual direction, otherwise, the general counsel to not date until you are ready to pursue marriage is stricly upheld.

 

Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Our Lady of Mount Carmel, pray for us. Ave Maria!

 

fra John Paul