FFI Griswold Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Authentic discernment involves much more than glib quotes from saints or men from a religious community founded by... Ave Maria! I apologize if quoting from an L.C. priest has aroused anger or thoughts of scandal for anyone. I was not aware of the state of that community. May God bless and have mercy on them. "Let nothing discourage you, nothing depress you. Let nothing alter your heart or your countenance.. Am I not here who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not your fountain of life? Are you not in the folds of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Is there anything else that you need?" - Our Lady of Guadalupe to St. Juan Diego Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. All you holy Virgins and Widows, pray for us. All you holy Saints of God, pray for us. Ave Maria! fra John Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) I've posted in the Bride of Christ thread. This reminds me of people who are vehemently opposed to people using "depressed" outside of the mental illness, but one can feel depressed, use the term to describe his/her feelings, and not have depression. Does that dilute the severity of depression? I don't think so. Taking a run is running; wearing a veil is veiling. It just means it in a different sense than "real veiling." It's also not a fashionable choice. Yes, we could change things for our modern traditionalist sensibilities. Let's look at a few terms that we can change. "Clothing". Let's stop using this to refer to the ceremony of someone receiving a habit from the Church and instead let's use that term for modestly dressing. After all, we do "clothe" ourselves, do we not? "Investiture" Let's stop using this to refer to the ceremony of someone receiving a habit from the Church and instead let's use this term to refer to something like supporting bonds for convents. Veiling is a specific act of the Church. It has a special significance. Let's keep it that way. And by the way, not all religious communities for women have veils. Interestingly, they are all pretty much apostolic communities. Like the Franciscans I saw who have a tunic and hood and who keep their hair short. From a distance they looked like friars. Or the sisters from somewhere in Ohio who wear a blue suit with a blue hat (and maybe even gloves!). Edited July 21, 2013 by abrideofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFI Griswold Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Ave Maria! Paths of Love appears to be a very good resource for discernment and comes highly recommended. "This website is dedicated to information and discussion about vocation to states of life in the Catholic tradition, drawing upon the Fathers of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis de Sales, St. Thérèse of Lisieux, and the popes, particularly Pope John Paul II. Many texts on vocation discernment may be found here.." They have a good list of online texts, books, and articles on religious, married, and single life from Church documents, including encyclicals and popes, Saints and Doctors of the Church, and priests like Fr. John Hardon, Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen, etc. http://www.pathsoflove.com/vocation.html Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Ave Maria! fra John Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 The Church is the Bride of Christ, and we are the Church. Can't we say that as members of the Church we are all Brides of Christ? Or does that not really extend to each individual and is instead only us united as the Church? The vocation of Consecrated Virgin may best reflect the Bride of Christ image, but it doesn't seem wrong for anyone to use that imagery who wants to since we are the Church. It seems there are different ways of using the term... there's the Church, the Bride of Christ. As Christians, our ultimate goal is to be united with God in Heaven. Marriage is like an image of Christ and the Church. Many are called to marriage, some are called to religious or consecrated life which is a more 'immediate' way of living out that reality. Then the term 'spouse of Christ' is also used in mystical theology, in the mystical espousal or the Interior Castle of St Teresa of Avila. There are people who reached this mystical espousal who were religious or who were married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Regarding the L.C. priest... I don't think I would want to reject anything he would say just because the order that he's in has had some difficulties. I know some really good L.C. priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Wearing a covering on one's head when it is not required means one has engaged in a fashion choice. Of course, it can be considered unfashionable too. :) Personally I don't wear it for fashion... I wear it because of my spirituality and because I attend the Latin Mass, where it is an expectation to wear it. When I wear it to the OF, it's just a personal way of honouring the Blessed Sacrament. :) maybe this might not be agreed with by all, but even if it's not mandated by Canon Law at this moment, it's still mentioned in Scripture and found within the tradition of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I was thinking about the habits and bridal dresses idea... the time I heard about this idea was in relation to Dominican Sisters' habits. I didn't take it to mean that a woman can't be a bride of Christ without a habit (like in the case of consecrated people in the world), but like this is a part of the spirituality of the Sisters. First I thought it was all Sisters who thought that way, later I heard that it's only Dominicans, I dont know the case really. I don't have any issue with that personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Marie Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I was thinking about the habits and bridal dresses idea... the time I heard about this idea was in relation to Dominican Sisters' habits. I didn't take it to mean that a woman can't be a bride of Christ without a habit (like in the case of consecrated people in the world), but like this is a part of the spirituality of the Sisters. First I thought it was all Sisters who thought that way, later I heard that it's only Dominicans, I dont know the case really. I don't have any issue with that personally. That's somewhat of the problem I'm seeing though. I think the sisters need to be careful to present this as their own understanding and not church teaching as it has no basis in church teaching. I have no issue with them believing that but it has spread among women who are discerning with them as if it is "Gospel truth" when its just an aspect of their personal spirituality. I don't view my habit as a wedding dress but I've had many women quote this "wedding dress" statement as if it is the true definition of a habit according to church teaching and as if I'm denying an important truth when I say that I don't feel the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 That's somewhat of the problem I'm seeing though. I think the sisters need to be careful to present this as their own understanding and not church teaching as it has no basis in church teaching. I have no issue with them believing that but it has spread among women who are discerning with them as if it is "Gospel truth" when its just an aspect of their personal spirituality. I don't view my habit as a wedding dress but I've had many women quote this "wedding dress" statement as if it is the true definition of a habit according to church teaching and as if I'm denying an important truth when I say that I don't feel the same way. Not to mention the fact that it is problematic that it is "Dominican" sisters who are pulling the Bride of Christ imagery or calling their habits wedding dresses when it goes against true Dominican heritage. The Dominicans rejected the Consecration of Virgins when they were founded. Only a handful of their (royal) nuns ever received it and for exceptional reasons. For the most part, they were deliberately founded to exclude the whole Bride of Christ concept in favor of vowed religious life. Enter in the religious communities of active Dominican sisters and it is rather laughable that they are trying to resurrect a concept that their cloistered counterparts rejected centuries ago from the get-go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Regarding the L.C. priest... I don't think I would want to reject anything he would say just because the order that he's in has had some difficulties. I know some really good L.C. priests. One should be very careful in reading vocations material from a person who may have been complicit in the sinful dealings of the founder and may have been a part of the continuing cover up, particularly since part of the scandal is in the way they recruit and retain members. There are some very good websites that describe how cult like both the LCs and RCs are, and the damage they have done to both members and donors. A lot of what sounds really good may not be so good, and may be meant in a way different than what the Church interprets the phrases to mean. Just as Mormons have phrases that sound Christian but are totally non-Christian, so do some of these organizations with strong cult like signs. And yes, many have had to have cult deprogramming after leaving LC/RC and therapy for PTSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savvy Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I do agree that different communities have different views on the habit. The whole purpose of the habit is that everybody wears the same thing. So if everybody wore a certain colour code, it would be a habit. But, I do not see anything wrong with the bride of Christ imagery, because some of us have truly been called that way. So, we are not making things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Marie Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I do agree that different communities have different views on the habit. The whole purpose of the habit is that everybody wears the same thing. So if everybody wore a certain colour code, it would be a habit. But, I do not see anything wrong with the bride of Christ imagery, because some of us have truly been called that way. So, we are not making things up. Hey Savvy... I think this conversation is getting confusing because there are a two different bridal conversations happening at once. One is about religious being Brides of Christ (that part is beyond me and because I don't identify primarily with that title I don't have any comment on the Bride of Christ stuff) and the other conversation is about sisters saying, "The habit is a wedding dress." The former has roots in the liturgy and practice of religious life while the latter has no basis in current or past understanding of religious life. The imagery of the bride of Christ is not made up but the idea that the habit is a wedding dress has no basis anywhere but from the sisters who are promoting it. It is fine for one community to say "We view our habit as our wedding dress." It is not fine to say "Habits are wedding dresses and who wouldn't want to wear their wedding dress every day?" The idea that the habit is a wedding dress is an invention of some contemporary sisters. That's fine but they need to make sure that the people they are speaking with know that this is a new perspective and not something that the Church has ever declared about habits. It would be like me saying "All habits should be blue in imitation of the Blessed Mother" because my community wears blue for that reason. It's a tradition in my community to wear blue for the Blessed Mother but I don't expect sisters in other communities to agree and change their habits, nor do I judge them because they wear white or brown or gray or red... I hope that cleared up the conversation a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I don't view my habit as a wedding dress but I've had many women quote this "wedding dress" statement as if it is the true definition of a habit according to church teaching and as if I'm denying an important truth when I say that I don't feel the same way. Yes. This is the exact same problem consecrated virgins living in the world face. When all kinds of active religious start claiming they are "Brides of Christ" and implicitly recruit people who have a vocation to be a bride of Christ, the issue I have with this is that active religious are none of them primarily brides of Christ but vowed disciples of Christ. Active religious are not permitted to become brides of Christ in the fullest most perfect sense. They are, however, allowed to make religious profession. Then you get people who equate "bride of Christ" with people who wear habits and who claim their habit is a wedding dress as a result of this dissemination of a private spirituality. Then in turn you get people who think consecrated virginity is not for them because they are not really anything because THEY don't wear habits (wedding dresses) and this bride of Christ thing is only sentimental cause only religious are truly brides of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Marie Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I think too when I, as a religious, say that I don't identify with the term "Bride of Christ" people think maybe I'm not taking my vocation seriously or maybe I'm not as dedicated to Christ or maybe my relationship with Him isn't as strong or as intimate as it should be. My ring is engraved with the latin "to you I am espoused" and I believe those words with all my heart. That doesn't mean I find my identity in the term "Bride of Christ.". I see myself as a woman vowed to follow Christ, in imitation of his life, in service of his people, and in love with Him. The most important part of my life is living the evangelical counsels of chastity, poverty, and obedience. Everything else is in service to that; my apostolate, my communal life, my prayer life, what I wear... They are the means to reach the end which is growth in holiness through profession of public vows. And, just like I wish other religious would do, I am saying all of this as my own personal perspective on religious life and not as any definitive statement for other religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) Sister Marie, I totally get where you're coming from. The Church herself emphasizes the discipleship part of life lived according to the evangelical counsels, rather than emphasizing any kind of bridal imagery. I think this was a wise move on the part of the Church because the Church wanted to make the distinction clearer that the vows are the heart of the vocation to religious life, not a bridal spirituality. Yes, the male religious or female religious reflects the Church as Bride more fully than your average baptized person... but discerning religious life is primarily about whether one is called to take on these specific obligations as a way of following Christ. This is a lot different than discerning a spousal vocation- vocation to marriage or consecrated virginity. I encountered this in my own discernment process. Is a specific way of life, a particular charism my call? Is being married to a man whom I love tenderly in God my call? Or is being married to Christ directly my call? Some active religious communities want you to think that the heart of discerning their way of life is whether you are called to be a bride. It isn't. It is whether to follow a charism. ABC Edited July 21, 2013 by abrideofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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