Young Jews, Catholics And Muslims United At Wyd Rio

[HisChildForever]

Interfaith dialogue is effective when it is used to discuss differences, identify similarities, and understand each other. Such discussions become pointless when they merely focus on differences and why the other side is wrong. 

 

If a non-Catholic asks me a question about something I believe, I talk with them, not at them - I show my appreciation for their interest and answer as honestly and educationally as I can. Through my words, knowledge, and passion I hope to convey the great love I have of Christ and the amazing impact He's had on my life. If I had a question for a non-Catholic I would very much appreciate the same kind of response. I want that person to talk with me, not at me. I believe as a Catholic that I can show the beauty of Catholicism to others not just through the teachings I explain but how the Catholic life is lived and how it's changed me. If I just sit there and dictate why the person is apt to end up in Hell then I'm not going to foster interest but disdain. The person might get turned off entirely from Christianity.

[Socrates]

Let's fight ignorance and bigotry with more ignorance and bigotry. Do you hear that? That's another Coptic church burning down.

 

So is actually believing that the Christian Faith is true ignorance and bigotry?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

So is actually believing that the Christian Faith is true ignorance and bigotry?

 

Nope. 

[Socrates]

I just find it interesting that you're taking the position of the Muslims I have issue with. This way of thinking isn't going to solve anything, neither is your idle prayer and criticism. Dehumanization occurs when we distance ourselves from others and refuse to dialogue with them. The less two groups understand each other, the more likely it is for them to act violently towards one another. 

 

With all due respect, this is complete nonsense.  It's not dehumanizing to sincerely disagree with those whose views contradict your own, nor to try to bring them to the truth.  Apotheoun has in fact dialogued with Muslims plenty of times, and seems in fact a lot more knowledgeable about Islam than yourself.  The Christian Faith and Islam are in disagreement on many key points, and pretending that we basically agree on everything is not true dialogue, and in fact respects neither the Christian Faith, nor Muslims - who are quite aware that the two religions are incompatible.

 

Obviously, you disagree with Apotheoun, and are trying to argue against his beliefs, but it would be stupid (despite the profound ignorance and inanity of your positions) to accuse you of "dehumanizing" him by your disagreement with his beliefs.

 

 

This proves everything I've been saying so far. Your posts are a strong argument for Atheism. 

 

 

Do you see what I mean now? Your logic isn't far from the radical Muslims. I hope the majority of Catholics disagree with you. 

 

"Fearing not that I'd become my enemy. In the instant that I preach." Bob Dylan 

 

 

This is completely irrelevant, but I'll humor you. I'm not going to go into the methodological principals of Qur'anic hermeneutics. If a majority of Muslims actually followed the interpretation you're providing, you and I would be dead. People are less likely to mindlessly follow their religious leaders/political leaders when they actually get to interact with people from the other side. 

 

(Actually, the most violence tends to be between two groups of people who have interacted with one another for many years.  Brutal hatred rarely exists between complete strangers.  But that's an aside.)

 

It seems that you are saying that it is somehow wrong and hateful to actually believe in the truth of one's Faith or to try to bring others to believe in it.

 

Christianity and Islam are contradictory religions, and cannot simultaneously be true.  Either Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Redeemer of mankind, or He is not.  Either Christ was killed and resurrected (as the Christian gospels claim) or He was not (as Islam claims).  Either Mohammed was a genuine prophet receiving divine revelation, or he was not.

Either Islam is true and Christianity false, or else Christianity is true and Islam false.

 

The truth of those matters is not at all trivial to the believing Christian or Muslim, and to attempt to trivialize these differences and pretend as though Christians and Muslims basically believe the same thing is both dishonest, and shows no respect to either Christians or Muslims.

 

This is not to say that Christians should not be respectful of Muslims as persons when arguing religion with them, but to pretend these differences are not real or important does not show respect to anyone, and accomplishes absolutely nothing - it would be a pointless waste of time.

 

Of course, you may believe that neither Christianity not Islam is true, and that both religions are equally false, but if I did not believe what the Christian Faith teaches to be true, there would be no real point in calling myself a Christian.  (And the same would go for a Muslim regarding the teachings of Islam.)

Edited June 14, 2013 by Socrates

[Socrates]

Nope. 

 

So what did Apo say that was ignorant and bigoted?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

With all due respect, this is complete nonsense.  It's not dehumanizing to sincerely disagree with those whose views contradict your own, nor to try to bring them to the truth.  

 

I said dehumanization occurs more readily when we distance ourselves from groups and refuse dialogue.

 

 

 

 Apotheoun has in fact dialogued with Muslims plenty of times, and seems in fact a lot more knowledgeable about Islam than yourself.  

 

 

Interesting assumption.

 

 

 

 

 

The Christian Faith and Islam are in disagreement on many key points, and pretending that we basically agree on everything is not true dialogue, and in fact respects neither the Christian Faith, nor Muslims - who are quite aware that the two religions are incompatible. Obviously, you disagree with Apotheoun, and are trying to argue against his beliefs, but it would be stupid (despite the profound ignorance and inanity of your positions) to accuse you of "dehumanizing" him by your disagreement with his beliefs.

 

 

 

 

Oh no, are you going to base your whole argument on your misunderstanding of my posts? It's pretty obvious that Islam and Christianity have differences.

 

 

 

(Actually, the most violence tends to be between two groups of people who have interacted with one another for many years.  Brutal hatred rarely exists between complete strangers.  But that's an aside.)

Yes, and do you know what's a great way to keep fueling that hatred? More ignorance.

 

 

It seems that you are saying that it is somehow wrong and hateful to actually believe in the truth of one's Faith or to try to bring others to believe in it.

Nope. Proselytizing is okay. Rejecting attempts for dialogue seems a little weird.

 

 

Christianity and Islam are contradictory religions, and cannot simultaneously be true.  Either Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Redeemer of mankind, or He is not.  Either Christ was killed and resurrected (as the Christian gospels claim) or He was not (as Islam claims).  Either Mohammed was a genuine prophet receiving divine revelation, or he was not.

Either Islam is true and Christianity false, or else Christianity is true and Islam false.

Those are the only two options.

 

 

The truth of those matters is not at all trivial to the believing Christian or Muslim, and to attempt to trivialize these differences and pretend as though Christians and Muslims basically believe the same thing is both dishonest, and shows no respect to either Christians or Muslims.

 

This is not to say that Christians should not be respectful of Muslims as persons when arguing religion with them, but to pretend these differences are not real or important does not show respect to anyone, and accomplishes absolutely nothing - it would be a pointless waste of time.

 

Of course, you may believe that neither Christianity not Islam is true, and that both religions are equally false, but if I did not believe what the Christian Faith teaches to be true, there would be no real point in calling myself a Christian.  (And the same would go for a Muslim regarding the teachings of Islam.)

 

You are attacking a point I never made. I'm in favor of what the Church is doing at WYD. 

Edited June 15, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Kia ora]

That is the common Western viewpoint, but anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the Eastern (Greek) Fathers knows that they used Greek philosophical terms while giving them a new meaning. For example, the Greek terms ousia and hypostasis are synonymous in Greek pagan philosophy, but they mean very different things in Eastern Christian theology. The former term in pagan philosophy stands for essence, the knowable substrate that informs a thing, while in Greek Christian theology ousia stands for the unknowable divine essence (i.e., the being beyond being that transcends created existence); and - of course - as I already indicated - the term hypostasis in Greek pagan thought stands for the knowable substrate (or substance) that informs a thing making it knowable by rational reflection, while in Eastern Christian theology hypostasis stands not for essence, but for personal existence (i.e., a particular subsistence), which has distinguishing characteristics that make it unique, and unrepeatable. A hypostasis is an individuated existence (i.e., a subsistent being) that cannot be shared by or with any other hypostasis. Thus, to summarize, in Greek patristic theology ousia and hypostasis are no longer used to stand for one and the same thing; instead, they represent two very different things, and this is just one example of how the Eastern Fathers altered the meanings of Greek pagan philosophical terms in order to represent Christian theological ideas.

 

No offense, but I sorta knew all that. I did do ancient Greek at university and ancient Greek philosophy to boot. Like I said, Christians formed their Christianity using pagan thought.

[Kia ora]

 

 

That said, what I do not advocate is a wishful thinking sort of dialogue were everyone pretends that we all believe in and worship the same God, i.e., the kind of wishful thinking that will no doubt be promoted at World Youth Day.

 

 

 

Who are Muslims and Jews worshipping if not God? Is there another God?

[Ice_nine]

Who are Muslims and Jews worshipping if not God? Is there another God?

 

 

That's an interesting question. I'm sure I hold a lot of false ideas about God because of my ignorance, but nonetheless I think he still hears my prayers. So do Muslims and Jews, who hold a lot of false ideas about God, pray to Him or what? Are their prayers falling upon deaf ears. As it pertains to "worship" I believe that's a highly specified term in Christianity (the pinnacle of worship is the liturgy/communion, I think)

[Norseman82]

Maybe at this point we all should read the story in Acts of St. Paul going into the Greek temple and commenting on the statue to the "unknown god".

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Maybe at this point we all should read the story in Acts of St. Paul going into the Greek temple and commenting on the statue to the "unknown god".

I'd love to. Can you say which chapter of Acts?

[BigJon16]

One can have a constructive conversation with another person without totally compromising one's beliefs and values. It's called being human. C'mon people, be people. 

 

 

 

[Dr. Bombay]

One can have a constructive conversation with another person without totally compromising one's beliefs and values. It's called being human. C'mon people, be people. 

 

People are strange.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WftIhN5GxGk

[BigJon16]

People are strange.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WftIhN5GxGk

 

 

 

People are crazy. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKpQRjj_WbU

 

 

 

SUMMA SUMMA SUMMATIME!! 

[Socrates]

I said dehumanization occurs more readily when we distance ourselves from groups and refuse dialogue.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting assumption.

 

Maybe I'm naive and gullible, but I trust that Apotheoun is being honest on here about himself and his experience when he says he himself has both formally studied the teachings of Islam in college as well as having discussed and debated religion extensively with actual Muslims.

 

If you in fact are more knowledgeable about Islam and Islamic-Christian differences than he is, you have thus far posted nothing on here to indicate such.

 

 

 

Oh no, are you going to base your whole argument on your misunderstanding of my posts? It's pretty obvious that Islam and Christianity have differences.

 

And what is the point of your posts.  It appears you have insinuated that Apotheoun is guilty of spreading ignorance and bigotry.  If that is a misreading of your posts, feel free to correct me and clarify what you really meant. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, and do you know what's a great way to keep fueling that hatred? More ignorance.

 

And what specifically is this ignorance you keep referring to?

I have't seen anything ignorant in Apo's posts.  And if he is speaking in ignorance, perhaps you can point out specifically what he said that was ignorant, and enlighten us all to the truth.

 

 

Nope. Proselytizing is okay. Rejecting attempts for dialogue seems a little weird.

 

Who's rejecting attempts at dialogue?  Apo has said he has repeatedly had religious discussions with Muslims.

 

Actual religious dialogue (if you actually believe in your religion) should involve being honest about the serious differences in key Christian and Muslim beliefs, and trying to bring others to the truth.

 

Holding hands and singing kumbaya and pretending we all believe the same is not actual dialogue, and is really pretty pointless.

 

 

 

Those are the only two options.

 

If the Christian Faith is true, Islam cannot be true - and vise versa.

 

 

You are attacking a point I never made. I'm in favor of what the Church is doing at WYD. 

 

I tend to agree with Apo that it's probably largely useless at best.

 

I'm all for being friends with people of opposing religious beliefs and treating them with respect, but acting religiously as though we are share the same religion is not honest or truthful, and has the risk of misleading Catholics into religious indifferentism, which is contrary to the Faith.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Maybe I'm naive and gullible, but I trust that Apotheoun is being honest on here about himself and his experience when he says he himself has both formally studied the teachings of Islam in college as well as having discussed and debated religion extensively with actual Muslims.

 

Okay, you can believe whatever you want. 

 

 

And what is the point of your posts.  It appears you have insinuated that Apotheoun is guilty of spreading ignorance and bigotry.  If that is a misreading of your posts, feel free to correct me and clarify what you really meant.  

 

 Reread the thread and figure it out. If apoth is confused, he can address me himself. 

 

Edited June 16, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Kia ora]

That's an interesting question. I'm sure I hold a lot of false ideas about God because of my ignorance, but nonetheless I think he still hears my prayers. So do Muslims and Jews, who hold a lot of false ideas about God, pray to Him or what? Are their prayers falling upon deaf ears. As it pertains to "worship" I believe that's a highly specified term in Christianity (the pinnacle of worship is the liturgy/communion, I think)

 

I don't like to believe that God has abandoned the billions of people in the world who have a wrong idea of about God (that would be every one of us, no?). Why would wrong ideas about God separate us from him any more than the fact that we're all wrong people? That is to say, we're all sinners and so wrong humans in some sense.

 

But that's just me, I think a self-proclaimed Muslim can act more Christianly and have a better relationship with God than a self-proclaimed Christian.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Kia ora

[KnightofChrist]

I don't like to believe that God has abandoned the billions of people in the world who have a wrong idea of about God (that would be every one of us, no?). Why would wrong ideas about God separate us from him any more than the fact that we're all wrong people? That is to say, we're all sinners and so wrong humans in some sense.
 
But that's just me, I think a self-proclaimed Muslim can act more Christianly and have a better relationship with God than a self-proclaimed Christian.

The world has great influence upon Christians today. We want to believe along with the world that something can be true and false at the same time. That one can truly worship God, truly believe in God, while at the same time reject and not believe in God. If someone rejects Jesus Christ as God, if they deny the Triune nature of the Godhead they do not truly know God or worship Him and cannot fully pray to Him properly. Both modern Islam and Judaism reject both Christ as God and the Trinity. Do they offer true worship? No, they offer indebitus veri Dei cultus, that is false/improper worship of the true God, or false worship of a false image of the one true God. Christ makes very clear that if one denies Him they deny the Father, there is no lukewarmness with God. God is not fully pleased with prayers from those that reject the Son as God, only the Catholic Church offers God true worship, and fully pleasing prayers to God.

[Ice_nine]

The world has great influence upon Christians today. We want to believe along with the world that something can be true and false at the same time.

 

I don't think this is entirely true. I just would like to believe that those who are trying to follow God, although they may err, will not burn in hell for simply being inaccurate in their beliefs.

[Socrates]

 

Okay, you can believe whatever you want. 

 

Yes, and I've seen nothing to make me believe Apotheoun a liar, or you to have superior knowledge on the topic.

 

 

 

 Reread the thread and figure it out. If apoth is confused, he can address me himself.

 

 

Honestly, your posts on it aren't very coherent, and I'm confused myself.  But apparently you're not interested in clarifying or defending your "bigotry and ignorance" remarks, which seemed directed at his posts.