Spikes On The Grille - Carmelite Monastery

[graciandelamadrededios]

Photos of Mangalore Carmel in India with spikes still attached to the grille.  This is very similar to the spikes of Manila Carmel except that the spikes in Manila is more pointed and they were removed from the lower portion of the choir grille; only the spikes on top of the choir grille remained.

 

Mangalore Carmel was founded from Pau Carmel of France.

 

I am so surprised that the Nuns in Mangalore Carmel did not removed the spikes since this custom is so outdated and could be dangerous.  They probably did not remove it out of poverty.

 

Chiqui and I had been discussin the spikes on the grille before I joined this forum.  Can you also post it here Chiqui?

 

Profession of Sr. Mary Agnes of the Eucharist - Mangalore Carmel:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sister looked very happy; she's radiant!

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[truthfinder]

These sisters look barefooted.

[graciandelamadrededios]

I have not noticed before and it looked like they are barefooted!

 

In solidarity with God's poor.

 

 

[inperpetuity]

She looks so happy!!! They have a beautiful sanctuary too.  Spikes are cool.

[graciandelamadrededios]

Has anyone here seen spikes like this in any Carmels?

 

[truthfinder]

I once saw a picture of a Polish Carmel with spikes - and I think they were still pointy.

[graciandelamadrededios]

Manila Carmel - Choir Grille - the photos are not very clear so you cannot see the spikes on the top of the grille.

 

 

 

 

Choir Grille of Manila Poor Clares: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dymphnamaria]

I have never seen a grille with spikes. Are the spikes both on the inside and outside part of the grilles? I wonder whats its purpose..

[truthfinder]

Of all the spiked grilles I have seen, it's been in OCD convents and the spikes point out toward the visitors, not the nuns.  When double grilles were instituted across all cloistered orders in the 16th century (i think) it was with the purpose that the grilles were to be far enough apart that no one could put their arm in and touch someone on the other side.  OCDs, for reasons I'm guessing, decided to take this a step further and add spikes - no one would want to put their body on that and try to reach inside the cloister. 

[vee]

Im guessing the spikes are for security.  

[dymphnamaria]

 

 

This grilles looks like to have spikes before.

[graciandelamadrededios]

Of all the spiked grilles I have seen, it's been in OCD convents and the spikes point out toward the visitors, not the nuns.  When double grilles were instituted across all cloistered orders in the 16th century (i think) it was with the purpose that the grilles were to be far enough apart that no one could put their arm in and touch someone on the other side.  OCDs, for reasons I'm guessing, decided to take this a step further and add spikes - no one would want to put their body on that and try to reach inside the cloister. 

 

Truthfinder is right, based on the photos above, the points of the spike is directed towards the visitors side of the grille and not on the nun's side.

 

The Regular Customs from Montelimar, France stipulated that the spikes measures at 3 inches.  This was customary for Spanish Carmels and when the French Carmelites founded the first monastery of the Reform in the Philippines, they brought the same custom hence, Manila Carmel still bears the spikes on the upper portion of the choir grille but the spikes on the lower side has been removed as per instructions of Mother Louise Mary.

 

One American Prioress has told me that she never heard of any Carmels in the US having spikes on the grille.  She probably did not know other Carmels have them or if they have spikes on the grille, only very few Carmel in the USA have them.  Mother says that its not customary for American Carmels and that this is Spanish Custom.

 

I read somewhere that St. Teresa personally insisted the spikes be placed on the grille since there are knights of the family of the Nuns who threatens them by inserting on swords on the open space of the square of the grilles.  Also, it drives away curious people when they see the dangerous looking pointed spikes.  People are very curious about the Reform of St. Teresa and to counter it, the spikes and great veils are one of the ways to protect their privacy.

 

I hope Chiqui will post the grille with spikes she showed me through email.

 

Gracian

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[rosamundi]

These sisters look barefooted.

 

Flip-flops, I think, rather than barefoot. Similar to what the nun's family is wearing in one of the photos.

[dymphnamaria]

Flip-flops, I think, rather than barefoot. Similar to what the nun's family is wearing in one of the photos.

 

As you look closely, I am sure the sister is on barefoot. And you can also see on the group picture of nuns some are seen barefooted.

[TheresaThoma]

The spikes (pointed or not) would definitely protect the cloister!

[Chiquitunga]

I hope Chiqui will post the grille with spikes she showed me through email.

 

I think you mean this one. 

 

 

This is from Seattle Carmel's old monastery at 1808 18th Ave., which is mentioned both in the newspaper clip here, http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Codd-Rev-William-J-Carmelite-Monastery-Press-Photo-/200738779921  & here, http://www.seattlecarmel.org/history.htm

 

So we know at least one US Carmel had them and they are French.

 

But yes, nowadays most of the Carmels that seem to still have them (besides that one in Poland you shared with me Gracian & what Manila left up & Mangalore) are Carmels in Spain, including San Jose in Avila. 

Edited June 30, 2013 by Chiquitunga

[inperpetuity]

I wonder if they have them in the parlor as well?  That would make it more difficult for family, but I like them in the chapel.

[truthfinder]

Family would usually see their nun-family member without the veil, but the other sister in the parlour with her would be wearing the parlour veil. 

[Chiquitunga]

I wonder if they have them in the parlor as well?  That would make it more difficult for family, but I like them in the chapel.

 

It looks like at the Carmel of San Jose in Avila they took them off the grille in the parlor, but left them in the chapel.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C98bIOoFJ7M

 

When I found these videos about Sr. Edita, this was actually the first time I had ever seen spikes on the grille like that, http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/109813-croatian-actress-professes-solemn-vows-in-avila/  Somehow I missed that in my previous Carmelite research/didn't look carefully enough at pictures I'd seen from Spain which had them, especially those founded by Madre Maravillas. It's pretty interesting. 

 

 

Of all the spiked grilles I have seen, it's been in OCD convents and the spikes point out toward the visitors, not the nuns.  When double grilles were instituted across all cloistered orders in the 16th century (i think) it was with the purpose that the grilles were to be far enough apart that no one could put their arm in and touch someone on the other side.  OCDs, for reasons I'm guessing, decided to take this a step further and add spikes - no one would want to put their body on that and try to reach inside the cloister. 

 

Thank you so much for this explanation! and to Gracian :like:

 

 

I read somewhere that St. Teresa personally insisted the spikes be placed on the grille since there are knights of the family of the Nuns who threatens them by inserting on swords on the open space of the square of the grilles.  Also, it drives away curious people when they see the dangerous looking pointed spikes.  People are very curious about the Reform of St. Teresa and to counter it, the spikes and great veils are one of the ways to protect their privacy.

 

[Chiquitunga]

Family would usually see their nun-family member without the veil, but the other sister in the parlour with her would be wearing the parlour veil. 

 

Yes, that's written somewhere either in their Constitutions or Ceremonial, that only immediate family could see them without the veil over their faces in the parlor. When I have a chance later tonight maybe I'll go look that up.