Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) The Vatican no long speaks of salvation, rather, brotherhood.. "The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood." Apteka, although I disagree with the notion that Christ came only to make men brothers, after all by creation we are already brothers, I do not see the opening part of the comment as wrong. The incarnation is both a concrete historical event in the sense that the Virgin Mary gave birth to the Son of God and Savior of the world, but the incarnation of the Logos is also made manifest in all the baptized, for the incarnation continues in Christ's body the Church, and in each individual member. Edited October 1, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 I find it amusing that many will gladly latch onto the pope's comments given in interviews as proof that the Church is corrupting her own teachings. Didn't anybody teach you guys about the magisterium? The Magisteriums contradict themselves :paperbag: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 If Protestantism is a means of salvation along with Catholicism, then my conversion in 1988 was "solemn nonsense," and I might as well have remained Protestant. I left Protestantism (or to be more precise Episcopalianism) because it is in error, and I discovered the truth, which is found fully only in the Catholic Church. If I could have been saved and had the kind of spiritual life Christ calls all men to in the Episcopal Church then I shouldn't have worried about converting. I should have done what the first priest I met with told me to do and just be the best Episcopalian I can be. But I did not accept what he said, and instead sought out another priest and he helped me to convert to Catholicism. Was that all "solemn nonsense"? Which is why staying in Roman Catholicism is untenable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 The Magisteriums contradict themselves :paperbag: Pure troll. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I suppose I will have to work out all of this on my own since the questions I am asking are seen as "trolling" by many. I don't consider you or Apteka to be trolling... well, actually Apteka might be kind of descending into it with hippy pictures lol but that's standard phatmass trollability totally within the Winchester rule I do agree with you on this point, though, ppl need to stop being so liberal with the word 'troll', a troll is someone who is maliciously attempting to stir up trouble by taking outlandish positions they don't really agree with to try to start a flame war, it's not just someone you disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Which is why staying in Roman Catholicism is untenable I am not in Roman Catholicism, but I still am troubled by the pope's comments. I will have to pray about what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) I don't consider you or Apteka to be trolling... well, actually Apteka might be kind of descending into it with hippy pictures lol but that's standard phatmass trollability totally within the Winchester rule. He may be doing that out of frustration, because as I said at the Byzantine Forum in response to a person who said that "traditionalists" frustrate Pope Francis, my response was that I myself am frustrated by him. Edited October 1, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I do agree with you on this point, though, ppl need to stop being so liberal with the word 'troll', a troll is someone who is maliciously attempting to stir up trouble by taking outlandish positions they don't really agree with to try to start a flame war, it's not just someone you disagree with. I miss the day of the debates on the filioque and other theological issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) If Protestantism is a means of salvation along with Catholicism, then my conversion in 1988 was "solemn nonsense," and I might as well have remained Protestant. I left Protestantism (or to be more precise Episcopalianism) because it is in error, and I discovered the truth, which is found fully only in the Catholic Church. If I could have been saved and had the kind of spiritual life Christ calls all men to in the Episcopal Church then I shouldn't have worried about converting. I should have done what the first priest I met with told me to do and just be the best Episcopalian I can be. But I did not accept what he said, and instead sought out another priest and he helped me to convert to Catholicism. Was that all "solemn nonsense"? I except an Evangelical Protestant to fall prey to this sort of inverted logic, but not a Roman Catholic. I think you need to meditate on the words of Joseph Ratzinger who augustly declared, "[W]hat a strange attitude that actually is, when we no longer find Christian service worthwhile if the denarius of salvation may be obtained even without it! It seems as if we want to be rewarded, not just with our own salvation, but most especially with other people's damnation — just like the workers hired in the first hour. That is very human, but the Lord's parable is particularly meant to make us quite aware of how profoundly un-Christian it is at the same time. Anyone who looks on the loss of salvation for others as a condition, as it were, on which he serves Christ will in the end only be able to turn away grumbling, because that kind of reward is contrary to the loving-kindness of God" (What It Means to Be a Christian). I am a Roman Catholic because of all the religious tradition I have encountered, I believe we have the highest level of theological truth. This does not mean I am an exclusionist and view other religious traditions as stumbling blocks. Rather any religious or secular tradition which obliges the individual to strive for the Good, is doing the will of God, because God and the Good are one and the same. I am a Roman Catholic because I believe in Christ and I believe He has led me back to His Church. I want the Eastern Orthodox to be the best Orthodox believer s/he can be, the same for the Buddhist, the Muslim, the Daoist, the Humanist. Jesus did not go marching around the Holy Land telling people that if they do not accept them as their personal savior they would burn in hell. Jesus taught that what it means to be His follower is to love your neighbor as yourself. The parable of the Good Samaritan does not end by saying, "But the Samaritan was not a Christian, so no matter how good he was, he is going to burn in hell." Edited October 1, 2013 by John Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Pure troll. Bravo. If we can't jest all that's left is to cry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) Al, can you see how Pope Francis' words about "conversion" could be hurtful to a person who prayed, and worked, and did all he could with the help of God's grace to bring a loved one to faith in Christ and membership in His Church? Was all of that merely "solemn nonsense"? Edited October 1, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I am not in Roman Catholicism, but I still am troubled by the pope's comments. I will have to pray about what to do. well, you should look at what the Pope has said about the difference between what he calls "evangelization" and what he calls "proslytization", and realize that he has called upon all Catholics to follow the example of St. Paul in evangelizing people... and not take a little jocular back and forth between him and an atheist interviewer, where both of them assure the other they're having a respectful discussion where the Pope can share the faith rather than tactically attempting to convert him, as some sort of huge disaster as if it was some sort of complete reversal of everything the man's ever said about conversion or evangelization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Al, can you see how Pope Francis' words about "conversion" could be hurtful to a person who prayed, and worked, and did all he could with the help of God's grace to bring a loved one to faith in Christ and membership in His Church? Was all of that merely "solemn nonsense"? again, what words about conversion? he called "proslytization" solemn nonsense, and I have explained to you what he and most theologians, including the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, mean by the term "proselytization"--an attempt to convert someone through means or motives that do not conform to the gospel (because the ends don't justify the means, even if the ends are conversion). he has not called conversion solemn nonsense, and in many instances he has praised efforts to evangelize. btw I have a feeling I've misspelled that word quite a few times in this thread lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) I am a Roman Catholic because of all the religious tradition I have encountered, I believe we have the highest level of theological truth. This does not mean I am an exclusionist and view other religious traditions as stumbling blocks. Rather any religious or secular tradition which obliges the individual to strive for the Good, is doing the will of God, because God and the Good are one and the same. I am a Roman Catholic because I believe in Christ and I believe He has led me back to His Church. John, I can understand your position, however when you say "highest level of theological truth" what are you referring to? Consider for example this quote from Pope Leo XII: "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth Itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members. For we have a surer word of the prophet, and in writing to you We speak wisdom among the perfect; not the wisdom of this world but the wisdom of God in a mystery. By it we are taught, and by divine faith we hold, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and that no other name under heaven is given to men except the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in which we must be saved. This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church… For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: 'If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" Ubi Primum, There are numerous quotes like the above that can be pulled from Councils and Papal statements throughout the millenia. But reading it one almost feels uncomfortable because it doesn't fit with our current Catholic theology. Clearly one has to question whether Francis even believes in such a thing, when he apparently confirms people in their own falsehood. The Pope feels there is no need to convert such people, rather, we are to dialogue with them to strengthen world peace. If I were an orthodox Catholic, I would find the current state of the Roman Church very troubling. Edited October 1, 2013 by Apteka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 well, you should look at what the Pope has said about the difference between what he calls "evangelization" and what he calls "proslytization", and realize that he has called upon all Catholics to follow the example of St. Paul in evangelizing people... and not take a little jocular back and forth between him and an atheist interviewer, where both of them assure the other they're having a respectful discussion where the Pope can share the faith rather than tactically attempting to convert him, as some sort of huge disaster as if it was some sort of complete reversal of everything the man's ever said about conversion or evangelization. Al, I know that Pope Francis has spoken about "evangelism," but my concern is with what he said in the interview. The interviewer asked him about "conversion" and Pope Francis responded by saying that "proselytism is solemn nonsense," now the interviewer clearly took that to be an answer to his question, so are you going to argue that Pope Francis intentionally (or otherwise) deceived the interviewer by changing the subject from conversion to proselytization, with Pope Francis being for the former but against the latter? I took what Francis said at face value as a response indicating that he was not seeking to convert the atheist interviewer, but within that context Pope Francis did more than simply say he would not try to convert the man, he also called the whole idea "solemn nonsense." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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