Discerning A Discalced Carmelite Vocation - And Nervous

[SilentJoy]

Hello! I am currently applying to a Discalced Carmelite Monastery (1990 constitution). Sometimes it seems to be the only thing I could ever want to do, other days it feels like it will be disastrous. I am wondering if anyone would be willing to help me allay (or confirm) some concerns. I would love to hear from anyone who has experienced life within such a community.

 

It might be important to know that I was emotionally abused - it wasn't debilitating, but it was there. Although I know I can't avoid all difficult situations in life, part of me says "yeah, but it would be really dumb to knowingly lock myself in a similar situation." I've spoken about this with the Reverend Mother and she took a couple of weeks to pray and think it over before agreeing to allow me to go on with the application process.

 

When I visited, the community appeared to be very sweet and happy. The nun who has been communicating with me via letter is very gracious, helpful and understanding. I have been told several times that the community is looking forward to receiving me if I am accepted. Nobody seems "mean" (although I didn't meet all of them), yet I wonder how different it may seem if I enter.

 

Specifically I am concerned about shaming and shunning. Is this fairly common? I will not be able to deal well with that; it seems wrong and I would be very sad. I'm willing to endure privation but I have a strong desire to protect myself from deliberate degradation.

 

Thanks!

 

Edited November 25, 2013 by SilentJoy

[TheresaThoma]

Welcome!

I can't really speak to your concerns since I have not discerned Carmel. However I will share a few of my thoughts.

 I think that having concerns is normal. You are stepping into a very different and unknown way of life. Its very easy to let your mind run away with all sorts of what ifs and fears. Stay focused on what your know.about the community (they are happy and sweet) and the sister(s) you have had contact with (kind, gracious etc).

Purposeful shaming and shunning should never happen in a healthy community. Will it be perfect and happy and will everyone get along all the time? No, nuns are still human. So unless you have seen or heard anything relatively concrete that would raise a serious red flag then I would say not to focus on those fears.

Remember you are just entering, during postulancy and novitiate you are continuing to discern. If it turns out to be the wrong community (for any number of reasons) you can leave. Postulancy comes from postulare which means "to ask", you are asking both of the community and of yourself if this is the right place for you. Until you make first vows you are under no commitment to the community.

Pray! Hand your fears over to God, He will take care of them. 

[Carmelshrimp]

Carmelites live inspired by Love (with an intentional capital L).  That's not to say they're perfect and communities make mistakes like any other fallible human groups, but there is no policy of shaming or shunning in any Carmelite family.  The Carmelite is in love with God and wants nothing more than that others should share in that love.  Every community will have people  who rub each other up the wrong way and inevitably mistakes happen.  Bear in mind that your community will never be perfect this side of eternity but then neither are you (or anybody else).  If you genuinely want to embrace and be embraced by a community you have to be prepared to love each other including the imperfections which help to make you what you are. Every blessing on your discernment - and welcome to this community too 

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

Hello SilentJoy! Or how we greet in Carmel; Praised be Jesus Christ!

 

I am applying to a Discalced Carmelite Monastery also (1990) I have also been in a Carmel before. I was wondering if I should message you, but I'll be happy to share something here for you. If you would like to message me, please do and I would be happy to answer any questions.

 

Firstly, thanks be to God you were open about this issue. That takes a lot of courage because sometimes people enter with past wounds and try to hide from them and think that they can just put them behind them but sometimes, especially in the cloistered environment, these wounds can reappear. However with your openness to Reverend Mother and her decision to let you apply is a good sign to her of your healing and God's will that you be able to apply.

 

Shaming and shunning should not happen in any religious community. I'm sure your somewhat aware of the disciplines and mortifications that are done in Carmel, and the practice of kissing the floor when a fault is committed and being corrected for faults. Maybe you went over these things already with Reverend Mother just in case anything would be bothersome to you and I'm not saying that they would be, but just in case you had any concerns. Also, that when you enter there is no commitment. You and the community find out if this life is a fit for you and a fit with the community. I'm sure you've been doing this already, but that it would be good to go over any concerns and questions about the life before entering with Reverend Mother or the Sister that you have been in contact with (my guess is that perhaps its the Novice Mistress or Mother Sub-prioress.)

 

Also, don't expect that any Sister will look down on you. It isn't this way, and should never be, but that each one should lift each other up and be a joy to one another. In the cloister you are with your Sisters all the time, and even though there isn't much talking (or none at all) with each other outside of recreation and they don't talk about themselves, you may not even know much at all about the Sisters but each one is to help the other by her example and leading one another to grow in perfection..... I'm trying to think of how to explain this...... but that the community is your family and no one is there to hurt anyone, nor would they intentionally want to, but to help you to become the saint Our Lord wants you to be.

 

I hope you will become more at peace with the path Our Lord has for you and always knowing that path will bring you peace and joy. So I will certainly be praying for you during this time! Please keep me in prayer also. :)

Edited November 26, 2013 by VeniJesuAmorMi

[maximillion]

What about the Chapter of Faults - will this feel like humiliation to you?

[SilentJoy]

I couldn't figure out how to quote several posts in one reply, so I apologize in advance for the multiple replies. 

 

 Stay focused on what your know.about the community (they are happy and sweet) and the sister(s) you have had contact with (kind, gracious etc).

Purposeful shaming and shunning should never happen in a healthy community. Will it be perfect and happy and will everyone get along all the time? No, nuns are still human. So unless you have seen or heard anything relatively concrete that would raise a serious red flag then I would say not to focus on those fears.

 

 

Thank you, I will try to stop being so suspicious.

[SilentJoy]

Carmelites live inspired by Love (with an intentional capital L).  That's not to say they're perfect and communities make mistakes like any other fallible human groups, but there is no policy of shaming or shunning in any Carmelite family. 

 

I appreciate your response; the nun that I've been writing to said that there were some customs that needed to remain within the community, and part of me assumed that if it shouldn't be told to outsiders, it must be something very disagreeable, even though nothing looks particularly disagreeable so far. 

[SilentJoy]

Hello SilentJoy! Or how we greet in Carmel; Praised be Jesus Christ!

 

Now and forever! :cheers:

 

I am applying to a Discalced Carmelite Monastery also (1990) I have also been in a Carmel before. I was wondering if I should message you, but I'll be happy to share something here for you. If you would like to message me, please do and I would be happy to answer any questions.

 

Thank you for offering your help, and I will pray for your, and the community's, discernment.

 

 

I'm sure your somewhat aware of the disciplines and mortifications that are done in Carmel, and the practice of kissing the floor when a fault is committed and being corrected for faults.

 

Yes, I think these will be fine (plus I will have time to learn and adjust to them).

 

 

 I'm trying to think of how to explain this...... but that the community is your family and no one is there to hurt anyone, nor would they intentionally want to, but to help you to become the saint Our Lord wants you to be. 

 

Thank you; I think one of my biggest sources of doubt is the way that Carmelite communities are portrayed in movie biographies of Saints such as Therese the Little Flower, Teresa of the Andes, Edith Stein...all of the Carmelite nuns whom I've met personally have been joyful, but all of the communities in biographies are  generally cold and somewhat cruel, and I wondered if there would be something on the inside that I wasn't being shown.

 

 

 

[SilentJoy]

What about the Chapter of Faults - will this feel like humiliation to you?

 

No, that will be fine (and I was told that Postulants were not allowed to participate anyway). I have a friend who had a bad experience of a similar practice in a non-Catholic convent, so I made sure to bring it up in the interview. In my friend's case, the older Sisters each stood up in turn to accuse her of bad thoughts and intentions, but I was told that in Carmel, the public confession/accusation is never of a sin or a judgment of motive, just a small fault such as dropping an egg or arriving late to prayer.

[Totally Franciscan]

I would like to add to the wonderful posts already shared.  While I knew next to nothing about these kinds of corrections when I entered the two different communities, I was actually surprised how well I took correction.  As stated above, it was never a personal condemnation or accusation, it was just an apology for an action one did in the religious life way.  When late for a meal, the Cross Prayer was said on one's knees in the refectory.  When something was broken, just an explanation and apology to the Mistress was all that was in order.  Not much different than on the outside when one owns up to something one did.  If I had known about the Cross Prayer in front of all in the refectory before I had entered, I would have been hesitant, but really it was no big deal.  I am sure Our Lord appreciated the act of humility, and the other sisters in the refectory could not have cared less; they all had done it at some point in time.  We were all in the same boat, so to speak.  Have no fear!

[SilentJoy]

Oops, regarding post #8...I didn't mean to mention Teresa of the Andes in that list, those Carmelite nuns were okay. :-D

[Carmelshrimp]

I appreciate your response; the nun that I've been writing to said that there were some customs that needed to remain within the community, and part of me assumed that if it shouldn't be told to outsiders, it must be something very disagreeable, even though nothing looks particularly disagreeable so far. 

 

If it's the right community for you it may be uncomfortable but it won't be crushing.  The Carmelite vocation is very specific, but if it's truly yours the charism behind the customs comes to make sense and is therefore bearable and instructive.  Trust your future sisters to love you, rather than be looking at ways to find fault with you. They're probably conscious enough of their own failings and won't be too worried about yours.

[thepiaheart]

The Carmelite vocation is very specific . . .

 

I don't mean to become too tangential, but could you explain what you mean by this? Is it related to the way in which these personal humiliations are handled?

[Chiquitunga]

Oops, regarding post #8...I didn't mean to mention Teresa of the Andes in that list, those Carmelite nuns were okay. :-D

 

her Novice Mistress was a bit tough on her though, remember in the movie? I read about this too. just thought to point that out, not to add to the discussion in the thread though. I think what everyone else wrote was great :like:

 

by the way, you might enjoy this letter from a Carmelite in First Vows to her family (she has since professed Solemn Vows) http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=7695700&postcount=29

[SilentJoy]

Thanks, Chiquitunga.

[Carmelshrimp]

I don't mean to become too tangential, but could you explain what you mean by this? Is it related to the way in which these personal humiliations are handled?

 

Not humiliations but the vocation itself.  i wouldn't get too worried by 'humiliations'.  The purpose of them isn't to degrade but to move the Carmelite closer to God through the willing acceptance of the authority of her superiors.  The specific Carmelite vocation is that well-worn but apt phrase "love at the heart of the Church", and if a vocation is to love it's not going to express itself in belittling or wounding those who seek to embrace it.  Following God's call isn't anybody's bed of roses, but if Carmel is your vocation it's compelling and beautiful, not something to be feared - and neither are the other sisters.  They may not all be easy to live with, but that's communities for you.  I'd say explore with courage and hope and wait for God to let you know if this is where he wants you to be.  And if it is - go for it!
 

[SilentJoy]

Also, can anyone tell me if something is normal? It is bothering me, although I can't see that it is necessarily a problem.

 

A Sister was exchanging letters, and occasional phone calls, with me on behalf of the Monastery over the past 6 or 7 months. Because I am partway through the application process, I am in communication only with the Reverend Mother now; my last few letters to the Sister were responded to by Mother instead, and then she explained that, at this part, she usually 'takes over.' The second to last letter I sent to the Sister was the one about the emotional abuse mentioned in my opening post (it had been a recent revelation; until that point, I hadn't labeled it to myself as 'abusive,' I just thought I'd been too sensitive as a kid). The Sister was asked to hold a response for 3 weeks while Mother thought and prayed about it; then Mother responded first, and after that the Sister was allowed to send her last letter to me. This was what initially prompted this thread; I was concerned that I was being "shunned" and that no one was permitted to talk to me, not even to explain why they couldn't talk to me...

 

 

[SilentJoy]

I should add that I am also worried because, when I asked for some idea about the types of individual penances practiced (beyond the community fast, etc.), Sister said that I would be learning about this in the Novitiate. Is it common to not be told something like this? I wish it was possible to be more upfront about it, since it seems like a subject that could potentially be disturbing. She would not have had to implicate anyone (i.e., "Sister J------- kneels until her knees bleed...").

 

To alleviate concern, I do discuss things with Reverend Mother; I just feel like I should be communicating with "outside" voices too, because other people seem to know what they're doing and I don't. :paperbag:

[maximillion]

If you scroll just a bit further down the threads you will see one called Carmelite Customs.

 

I think there is a section there that deals with some of the specifics.

 

Of course there are always little differences between the various communities, but have a read of that section then ask whatever specific questions you want.

[SilentJoy]

If you scroll just a bit further down the threads you will see one called Carmelite Customs.

 

I think there is a section there that deals with some of the specifics.

 

Of course there are always little differences between the various communities, but have a read of that section then ask whatever specific questions you want.

 

Thanks!