Discerning A Discalced Carmelite Vocation - And Nervous

[AnneLine]

SilentJoy,

 

I will pray for you and your discernment.

 

Regarding the info on the Carmelite Customs thread, I would be a little hesitant to read that too literally. 

 

This is the reason:  Not every community follows those practices right now.  Many very good communities have chosen to adapt those in big or small ways.   Each Carmel is VERY different from all the others, and you have to be able to trust enough to do what the sisters in the community to which you are applying are asking you to do.

 

I have already said what I am about to say ON the Carmelite Customs thread... but I think it bears repeating. 

 

I am the formation director in a secular Order community.  We get people who apply to our community with some very strong ideas about what the formation they 'should' be receiving would look like... because they have read all about it on line or have friends in a different community who have already gone through Secular Order Formation.  They think they know what to expect.

 

BUT every community is  little different... even if for only the reason that each one is filled with different people by definition!   Our community has developed our own formation program that is based on the general guidelines, but we do things a little differently as well.  AND that is completely permitted under our constitutions.  It can be EXTREMELY irritating to us to have aspirants tell us we are 'doing it wrong'.  What we have to keep saying to them is exactly what the sisters have said to you.... you need to let us form you the way we will form you.  Some things you will learn as a postulant, others as a novice, others as a temporarily professed, others as a solemnly professed nun.  It isn't that they are keeping anything from you, but you won't understand and could misunderstand things if you don't have a proper context in which to understand the information.  And if I were a little devil, I would LOVE to be able to get in there and muck up someone's good will....  oh yes!

 

It also makes it really difficult for the community to form someone if they are pre-determined what they will and will not do and want to learn and don't want to learn.   You just need to take it one step at a time.  If you are supposed to be there, you will know.  And if you are NOT supposed to be there, you will know.  So be at peace.

 

You have told the superiors of your concerns, and you have seen people's responses to you on this thread, and possibly on the 'leaving the monastery' thread.  No good community will go out of their way to torture the sisters!!!!   There will always be a certain amount of correction, humiliations, moments when you must obey even if you don't agree, etc.  But this is a normal thing to expect of any kind of religious formation -- or even life in an office or family!  It is just part of everyday life!  I certainly had moments like that when I was in counseling school, and in my marriage!    But if you trust the people with whom you are associating, it is bearable.   It is only when you cannot trust or are afraid or hesitant that a big problem can develop.

 

So... That's why I'd stay away from the 'Customs' thread and things like that...

 

What MIGHT be helpful is this book:  My Beloved, The Story of a Carmelite Nun by Mother Catherine Thomas of Divine Providence, OCD.   That book is about 60 years old, and in many Carmels, some of the details of what she writes are no longer practiced.  Much of what she writes WOULD be true of a fairly traditional Carmel (and the 1990's in general) even in 2013.   Chances are the plumbing may have been updated!   Possibly even the electrical system!   (and I am not kidding about that -- there are old life magazine articles on Mother Catherine Thomas showing the nuns with Candles in the choir of the Oklahoma City choir... because they didn't have electrical lights... because there was no electrical grid in their area when they moved there!   But that has long ago been changed!!!!)  And that is true of MANY of the customs you read about in some of the older books.... some are not customs of Carmel or other orders... they are realities of daily life from 1850 or 1900!  EVERYONE washed in bowls at that point!  

 

The spirit of the Carmelite order that she shares really would continue to be true... just some of the details have changed.

 

Here's a link to an on-line version of this book!

 

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001591870

 

Hope this helps!  Feel free to PM if you wish....

Edited December 13, 2013 by AnneLine

[SilentJoy]

 Some things you will learn as a postulant, others as a novice, others as a temporarily professed, others as a solemnly professed nun.  It isn't that they are keeping anything from you, but you won't understand and could misunderstand things if you don't have a proper context in which to understand the information. 

 

 

Thanks, that makes sense. They're just making sure that I'm going to be well-prepared to receive information that could otherwise be strange or damaging.

[AnneLine]

YES.   Exactly.

 

But you might enjoy My Beloved.... and you may find some of your family and friends may find it helpful, too.  Or A Right To Be Merry by Mother Mary Francis -- it's about the Poor Clare Colettines, but very similar....

[SilentJoy]

YES.   Exactly.

 

But you might enjoy My Beloved.... and you may find some of your family and friends may find it helpful, too.  Or A Right To Be Merry by Mother Mary Francis -- it's about the Poor Clare Colettines, but very similar....

 

Thanks for the book recommendations!

[AnneLine]

hehehe well... come down to the Lame Board and check out the Advent to Candlemas reading challenge -- we DARE you to read one or both of those books!!!!  And have some phun with us while you do it!

[SilentJoy]

 

 

Specifically I am concerned about shaming and shunning.

 

Okay, I sent a letter to Reverend Mother a couple weeks ago. I mentioned that I had been concerned about shunning, and that an online community assured me that there was no such practice. She called me back today and said, "Nobody ever asked THAT one before, you're the first..." :winner:

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

Okay, I sent a letter to Reverend Mother a couple weeks ago. I mentioned that I had been concerned about shunning, and that an online community assured me that there was no such practice. She called me back today and said, "Nobody ever asked THAT one before, you're the first..." :winner:

 

 

Its so nice that she got back to you so soon about your questions. I hope your conversation was helpful for your discernment. :)

[SilentJoy]

Its so nice that she got back to you so soon about your questions. I hope your conversation was helpful for your discernment. :)

 

Yes, Mother was very kind and seemed amused. She said that it was normal to have a lot of apprehension because I knew what I was leaving, but not what I was coming into.

[SilentJoy]

Any advice on how I will know that I am at peace with the possibility of being accepted to a Monastery when it is normal to be nervous or apprehensive?

[graciandelamadrededios]

Hi Silentjoy!

 

It is normal to be nervous or apprehensive. 

 

When your find the Carmel that you feel you belong, you will be at peace. 

 

My advise, ask Mother Prioress any questions that pops in your head, she would appreciate it.

 

Regarding Carmelite Customs, the vary even before Vatican II - there are two distinct group - the Spanish and French Customs.   After Vatican II, each Carmel are encourage to formulate their own customary or house statutes with or without the help the federation or associations they belong.

 

In Carmel, the operative word is: "Necessity has no law" as specified in the Carmelite Rule.

 

May God give you peace!

 

 

Gracian

[SilentJoy]

 

What MIGHT be helpful is this book:  My Beloved, The Story of a Carmelite Nun by Mother Catherine Thomas of Divine Providence, OCD.   That book is about 60 years old, and in many Carmels, some of the details of what she writes are no longer practiced.  Much of what she writes WOULD be true of a fairly traditional Carmel (and the 1990's in general) even in 2013.   

I loved the book, thanks for the recommendation! I did have a problem, though, with Mother's statement on the bottom of page 208 (of the online version) that "there is no other way for a nun to practice [humility] unless one is occasionally humiliated." It just seems very odd that someone would be so close to Love and yet say something like that...maybe I misunderstood the way she used the word, but it seems like deliberate humiliation, on its own, could only produce hatred (though I know God can work through this, too).

Any insight on this? Did I misunderstand?

[SilentJoy]

Hi Silentjoy!

 

It is normal to be nervous or apprehensive. 

 

When your find the Carmel that you feel you belong, you will be at peace. 

 

My advise, ask Mother Prioress any questions that pops in your head, she would appreciate it.

 

Regarding Carmelite Customs, the vary even before Vatican II - there are two distinct group - the Spanish and French Customs.   After Vatican II, each Carmel are encourage to formulate their own customary or house statutes with or without the help the federation or associations they belong.

 

In Carmel, the operative word is: "Necessity has no law" as specified in the Carmelite Rule.

 

May God give you peace!

 

 

Gracian

 

Thanks! I do try to keep in contact with Mother if a question seems important.

[AnneLine]

I loved the book, thanks for the recommendation! I did have a problem, though, with Mother's statement on the bottom of page 208 (of the online version) that "there is no other way for a nun to practice [humility] unless one is occasionally humiliated." It just seems very odd that someone would be so close to Love and yet say something like that...maybe I misunderstood the way she used the word, but it seems like deliberate humiliation, on its own, could only produce hatred (though I know God can work through this, too).

Any insight on this? Did I misunderstand?

 

I am glad you enjoyed the book!!!!

 

I can understand why Mother's comment on humility and humiliations might make you uncomfortable.  I'm not sure I have a total answer on this, but I'll share my thoughts for what they are worth.  

 

I think that most of us have a lot of pride, one way or another, if we are honest.  Every spiritual writer indicates that it is the HARDEST thing for us to deal with... and it is at the core of the problems we have with obedience charity, and a hundred other important virtues.  

 

Humiliations HURT.  It's easy to say we don't want to be hurt, and that we don't want to have to experience them. "It's not HEALTHY to have to live in a lifestyle that will cause us to be humiliated!'

 

But the reality is that, inside or outside of religious life, we will experience them.  Yup.  Every one of us.   The question is, what do we do with that pain, that embarrassment.   We can keep the focus on ourselves... or we can learn the discipline of uniting our pain with that of Christ, and trying to see the lesson we need to learn... the one that resulted in having just experienced a humiliation.   Was it that we put ourselves to the forefront?  Did we do something or say something without thinking?  Or did we just see for the first (or the 100th!) time that we are NOT good at something?  Well.... all of those are humiliating, yes?   I have experienced HUGE humiliations at work, in my family, in life in the everyday world.   

 

I was also in a religious community at one point, and we certainly had corrections given to us, but it was never in a spirit of unkindness or humiliation for the sake of humiliation -- it was always with the focus on helping us to grow holier and/or into better religious.  I believe Mother Catherine Thomas gives the example of a ballerina asking her fellow dancers to let her know if her form or other elements of her performance are less than perfect.  Trust me, they can be VERY hard on each other.  But it is to that end.  and so it should be in corrections in the religious life.

 

Now in Carmel -- in most traditional religious communities, for sure, but also in others -- there are moments when we are brought face-to-face with our own weakness, pride, areas that need improvement.  In some communities, this is done through a Chapter of Faults or corrections... or in a Community meeting... other times it is just a correction from a Superior... or an interaction with a fellow sister or brother.  NONE of them are pleasant moments, for sure.   But if those are utilized in a way that lets us grow from it and throw ourselves back on our Lord, they can be truly graced moments.

 

I think THIS is what Mother Catherine Thomas is trying to say.   

 

However, there are some communities and some superiors who let people get 'humiliated' or 'corrected' in ways that are not in keeping with the love and mildness of Christ.  THESE are destructive to the individuals who experience them... and this is probably what you are envisioning.  I don't think Mother is discussing the same thing.   At least I certainly hope not!

 

HOWEVER, others may see something different and have other viewpoints or insights.

 

Praying for you....

[SilentJoy]

 

 

I think THIS is what Mother Catherine Thomas is trying to say.   

 

 

Thanks!

[graciandelamadrededios]

I loved the book, thanks for the recommendation! I did have a problem, though, with Mother's statement on the bottom of page 208 (of the online version) that "there is no other way for a nun to practice [humility] unless one is occasionally humiliated." It just seems very odd that someone would be so close to Love and yet say something like that...maybe I misunderstood the way she used the word, but it seems like deliberate humiliation, on its own, could only produce hatred (though I know God can work through this, too).

Any insight on this? Did I misunderstand?

 

Anneline explained it well.

 

In my line of work, chapter of faults is like team coaching or individual coaching.

 

In team coaching - the entire team meets and the team leader discusses the strength and opportunities of each member.  At times, its hard to accept that you need improvement when you think that you did your best but if you look objectively, its for your own good.  good metrics means good company incentives.

 

In individual coaching, the team lead will discuss your strength and opportunities and what are the actions you needed to take.

 

So its kind of similar in the cloister.

[maximillion]

The path of perfection is not an easy one. That said, no one should be humiliated for the sake of it, and while Sisters and Brothers in RL are human and can sometimes be petty, I don't think deliberate unkindness enters into it, or it ought not!

 

I was in a cloistered community for fourteen years - not Carmel, but with a very similar rule and lifestyle. We didn't have chapter of faults but every Friday night before Compline we had a little ceremony when we filed past each other in turn, begged each persons forgiveness for any fault against charity (love) and offered forgiveness to the Sister into whom's eyes we were gazing.

Now, ordinarily this is a moving and heartfelt event, but if there HAD been any pettiness, quarrel or disagreement, it could feel at times quite overwhelming to do this and remain sincere and open hearted. At times it did feel humiliating. At times I rebelled in my thoughts - why am I asking forgiveness for things I wasn't even aware had upset someone!

 

What this and other little practices do is slowly wear away at the pride Anneline was talking about. When I am loving, openhearted and can embrace my shame, then I can be sure He is working in me.

 

So yes, there may well be times you feel humiliation. My NM used to say we felt humiliation in direct relation to the degree that we were still prideful - I am not sure about that one, but TBH I have experienced much more humiliation at the hands of my creative writing circle than I ever did in the convent!

[AnneLine]

You might find a video series that is on Youtube helpful, SilentJoy.  I tis called 'The Monastery 2005' and was a BBC series that portrayed the experience of 5 secular men who lived with the Benedictine Monks at Worth Abbey in Sussex for 40 days.   At one point one of the monks discusses the relationship between pride and asking forgiveness and living in harmony with the other monks and/or the other men.   I have found myself thinking of that series many times... and I think it is very akin to what Maximillion described above.  Very interesting and useful insight, Max!

 

Here's a link to the first segment -- but the discussion I mention takes place several segments later.  BUT you need to stick with the opening and first few sections or you won't understand the nature of the conflict that erupts!   It's an excellent series...

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTA1e2boSc[/media]

[graciandelamadrededios]

I read somewhere that after the chapter of faults, the nun's recreation is livelier.

 

Its kind of liberating for them.

 

And it really depends on how you view these practices.  

 

 

[maximillion]

Ah, Gracian, and there you have it......

 

 

it really depends on how you view these practices.

 

An attitude of open willingness to accept that achieving perfection is going to be at times painful (I like the ballet dancer idea, have you ever seen a dancers feet? Man that has to HURT!), is I think an absolute requirement. However, as I have said, and so did Anneline, life - as well as RL, is hurtful. We can't avoid it, it is part of the human condition. Did you ever know anything in life that was important that didn't involve a struggle or a challenge?

 

RL has it's distinctive and particular challenges - that's all.

[SilentJoy]

 

We didn't have chapter of faults but every Friday night before Compline we had a little ceremony when we filed past each other in turn, begged each persons forgiveness for any fault against charity (love) and offered forgiveness to the Sister into whom's eyes we were gazing.

Now, ordinarily this is a moving and heartfelt event, but if there HAD been any pettiness, quarrel or disagreement, it could feel at times quite overwhelming to do this and remain sincere and open hearted. At times it did feel humiliating. At times I rebelled in my thoughts - why am I asking forgiveness for things I wasn't even aware had upset someone!

 

What this and other little practices do is slowly wear away at the pride Anneline was talking about. When I am loving, openhearted and can embrace my shame, then I can be sure He is working in me.

 

 

What a wonderful custom!

 

From the responses, I am concluding that "humiliation" refers to what is felt, not what is inflicted. That makes more sense, thanks.