Where Sin Is Grace Abounds.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

May the love of christ consume you all.

 

So i was thinking that my understanding of this verse in the holy bible is that were there is sin all the more opportunity is given by God to escape sin. Just like if you 1 apple there's going to be a certain number of worms but if you have 10 apples there is going to be many more worms. It's that simple to me, where there is sin there is much grace, much opportunity given to repent and stop sinning. To me this does not mean that where there is no sin that there is no grace, you still have grace in abundance because your still sitting at the wedding table your just not being invited to sit down at the wedding table. Know what i mean? Anyhow what is anyone else view on this passage? Would be much appreciated. 

 

Onward christian souls.

 

Jesus iz LORD.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[reyb]

Are you referring to Rom 5:20-21?

 

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

 

 

[BarbTherese]

Corinthians 2 12:9 "And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me. [8] For which thing thrice I besought the Lord, that it might depart from me. [9] And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity."

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i wan't to prop what you said reyb but your props are disabled in this thread for some reason. That is exactly what i mean, and it is good you do see holy scripture as a whole and not just pick at it like a vulture and taking the pieces you see fit and forgetting the rest, i think some people here have mistaken you for doing as such.

 

Edited January 11, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Corinthians 2 12:9 "And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me. [8] For which thing thrice I besought the Lord, that it might depart from me. [9] And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity."

 

I think a sting on my flesh means extreme temptation whether that was often, half the time or sometimes or he is talking about a one off time. And in his weakness to not be able to defeat this temptation he cried out to the LORD hence why God is reminding him his grace is enough and paul need not sin, that paul has cried out to the LORD in his infirmity and God has come to him more powerfully/perfectly.

 

Jesus is LORD.

[BarbTherese]

Haydock's Commentary : http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id190.html (scroll down to Verses 7 - 10) - and pretty much what you posted, Tab.

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Thanks for the back up barbara, most here in fact 99% avoid discussing or debating with me nowadays, unsure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, and whether it is me or others, but it makes me feel unwelcome.

 

I liked it all and agree except the seemingly call to extreme consistant suffering bit at the end to come to fruition of perfection in Grace. I guess some can take more and some less and some in between for Holy scripture also tells us that " God will never give us more than we can handle, anything else is of the devil."

 

Young men of God rise up!

 

Onward christian souls.

 

Jesus iz LORD.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

But on the unwelcome thing, i perhaps did something seriously erroneous, so i get it already. But even if not, whatever am staying unless i get asked to leave or am banned, i get the odd convo and love seeing other peoples opinions on various stuff. And i think most posting the last 6 or so months are under 21 and perhaps seem they can't talk with me for some reason, perhaps it's the media preaching this lie about some generation gap and differing generations, if your alive your part of this generation and i welcome you into my life with open arms.  :)

 

 

                               1

Edited January 11, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

<edit time out>  and some or most including the elders have been blinded by this lie perhaps to some degree or another.

[BarbTherese]

Thanks for the back up barbara, most here in fact 99% avoid discussing or debating with me nowadays, unsure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, and whether it is me or others, but it makes me feel unwelcome.

 

I liked it all and agree except the seemingly call to extreme consistant suffering bit at the end to come to fruition of perfection in Grace. I guess some can take more and some less and some in between for Holy scripture also tells us that " God will never give us more than we can handle, anything else is of the devil."

 

Young men of God rise up!

 

Onward christian souls.

 

Jesus iz LORD.

 

I get the same thing now and then, Tab.  Don't let it bother you overly, who can know for sure why it is.  Possibly other members might also - don't know. Perhaps you were spot on in the first place and nothing more to be debated added or subtracted.  I certainly do not even remotely consider that you are unwanted on Phatmass - rather to the contrary.  I have rather often read your posts and thought to myself "Very true" but not posted.

 

As for that end bit in Haydock's - I think we can entirely confident that enough joys and enough sorrow and everything inbetween will be sent into each and every life to make great saints of us - dependant on our response of course.  We see this in the life of St Therese of Lisieux, who with only living the ordinary life of any Carmelite nun became a great Doctor of The Church - and one of few women to do so in our history.  She lived a very ordinary life in a very extraordinary manner.  I wonder if what Haydock is saying that when great suffering of some kind is sent into a life and always Grace is sufficient - that when Grace proves victorious over great suffering, then Grace shines with great brightness...........as perhaps it may not in only small difficulties and temptation etc.  It stands to reason, methinks?  But then when one looks at the life of St Therese, there is the proof that God alone makes saints and He will do it in His Own Unique Way, not subject to our human fallible reasons and reasoning.

 

Is this the verse re God never sending more than we can handle........ever: "Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians Verse 13 http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53010.htm )     

[BarbTherese]

PS  I don't think that Satan can ever tempt us beyond our means - beyond the means of Grace gifted to overcome.  If I fail in temptation, I think it is simply only ever due to my personal failing the Grace(s) gifted, never to insufficient Grace to meet any temptation whatsoever.

Edited January 11, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

But on the unwelcome thing, i perhaps did something seriously erroneous, so i get it already. But even if not, whatever am staying unless i get asked to leave or am banned, i get the odd convo and love seeing other peoples opinions on various stuff. And i think most posting the last 6 or so months are under 21 and perhaps seem they can't talk with me for some reason, perhaps it's the media preaching this lie about some generation gap and differing generations, if your alive your part of this generation and i welcome you into my life with open arms.  :)

 

 

                               1

 

But on the unwelcome thing, i perhaps did something seriously erroneous, so i get it already. But even if not, whatever am staying unless i get asked to leave or am banned, i get the odd convo and love seeing other peoples opinions on various stuff.

 

I cant imagine you getting banned, Tab - not unless you totally upset our fearless leaders in some terrible way..........and nothing to indicate this to date in your posts to my mind.  If they banned you, I would probably be out of here too I think.  Compared to some other Catholic discussion sites, I think Phatmass moderation is quite reasonable - insofar as I am aware to date. 

 

And i think most posting the last 6 or so months are under 21 and perhaps seem they can't talk with me for some reason, perhaps it's the media preaching this lie about some generation gap and differing generations, if your alive your part of this generation and i welcome you into my life with open arms. 

 

I thought this was a really unique thought and spot on: "if your alive your part of this generation".  I never thought of it that way and tended to swallow "media preaching". 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

:) teresa, a lot i think have fallen for this trick that there is some kind of generation gap and much more media jargon.

[Semper Catholic]

After reading that pedophile thread that you started that magically got deleted by the mods I think you need major psychiatric help.

[Semper Catholic]

[reposting removed content]

[mod]Public criticism of the mods.-BG[/mod]

[NotreDame]

After reading that pedophile thread that you started that magically got deleted by the mods I think you need major psychiatric help.

 

I'm tending to agree with you here...

 

For those of us who didn't see what this guy just posted in his pedophile thread. Thanks mods for covering that up.

 

But I really question your judgement in re-posting that same strange material here in this thread.  If it was deleted over there, it was for a reason. 

[Semper Catholic]

I'm tending to agree with you here...

 

 

But I really question your judgement in re-posting that same strange material here in this thread.  If it was deleted over there, it was for a reason. 

[mod]Public criticism of the mods.  

 

Or, instead of your theory/criticism, it could have just been thought a post was beyond salvaging via edit and was hidden (see: not deleted) while we decide how severe a punishment is and that the two of us who saw what I've deleted of your repost, felt it deserved the full view of all three mods and Dust, because we were not going to act alone based upon the content. -BG.[/mod]

[NotreDame]

If it was a moderator condemning what he said, his post would have been heavily edited and a comment in red font would have been made. Given the subject matter it comes off as trying to cover it up rather then condemnation

 

What's the point of a thread where every single comment has been removed with nothing but a "Ed: Comment Deleted"  in it's place?  Removing the entire thread makes sense.  Getting all riled up about it and throwing around words like "condemnation" and "cover-up" is a bit over the top.

[Norseman82]

Thanks for the back up barbara, most here in fact 99% avoid discussing or debating with me nowadays, unsure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, and whether it is me or others, but it makes me feel unwelcome.

 

 

Tab,

 

I'm not trying to be mean - think of this as a "big bro" offering a "little bro" some mentoring advice - but I think that the issue is that 99% here can't understand what you post.  Occasionally I can "break the code" (as some have called it); other times I just think of Manuel on Fawlty Towers. 

[cmaD2006]

After reading that pedophile thread that you started that magically got deleted by the mods I think you need major psychiatric help.

 

As the mod who initially hid the thread (note -- we CAN hide threads while the other mods are weighing in) I have to speak up

 

a) the initial intention *was* to figure out what to do with the thread, and if it was possible, bring it back

b) when the report came through, I was not somewhere where I could freely make edits ... especially with specific sexual references/details/etc.

c) we have said this in the past -- if something is too explicit it does NOT belong in a completely open area of the phorum.  Here's a good guideline -- do you want your underage child reading this?  I don't necessarily mean teens ... but think about a 10 year old?  Or a 12 year old?  They're old enough to use the net, and *could* innocently run into threads like these.

d) this *is* a Catholic forum, and we try really hard to hold our Catholic beliefs on here.  The initial post was, in my mind, controvertial enough to hide while the mods figure out what is appropriate.

 

Can a thread about pedophilia and the sex abuse scandal be opened up in Phatmass in debate table?  Absolutely -- it just needs to be respectful, and not get into sexual specifics.  And that was the main problem I saw in the 1st post.

 

Taking an assumption that we are "hiding" the issue really is disrespectful to all mods on this Phorum.  We tend to do a light handed modding on here, and only step in when it really does seem necessary.

 

Finally -- remember, all mods do this for free.  We're volunteers.  And sometimes we cannot act immediately.

 

*Not* closing this thread obviously, but the other thread in question *will* stay hidden for now.