Fellow Discerner Reports

[emma8201986]

In my diocese, we have formed a small group of women who are discerning - just a few but the meetings have been very helpful. One new member of our group is a lovely and prayerful young lady who happens to be quite a bit overweight (I'm not a great judge of weight but I would say she's about 5'5" and weighs @ 250lbs.) She was ready, willing and able to enter in 2013 and had visited several of the communities we often talk about on VS. She says that the 2 communities she was deciding between had both gently suggested to her that she should lose weight before applying. Her SD told her that (insensitively, if you ask me), that a seriously overweight sister doesn't look like she follows the vow of poverty very well. She also says that one of the communities put it in the context of a health issue - they require applicants to be in good health and being overweight causes many health problems. Frankly, I was a bit shocked by this and didn't believe it could be true but, though I don't know her well, this woman seems to be a very nice person - very involved in her parish and other community activities - I can't imagine she would make this up. I can also see the point of a community - overweight can be a health issue. What do you think?

[beatitude]

Emma, would your friend be comfortable with you sharing this information here? Many vocation directors and novice mistresses visit this site, and if these are communities that are well-known on VS, as you say, then there is a very real chance that one of them may stumble on this thread and recognise their candidate. I think these are personal matters that should be between the candidate and her community.

Edited January 17, 2014 by beatitude

[maximillion]

TBH I have seen lots of overweight Sisters and Nuns as well as aspirants and novices........maybe it is more of an issue for some communities than for others.

 

I was overweight when I entered and between the hard work and the constant fast I soon lost weight. No one ever suggested I needed to lose weight prior to entry.

[Lilllabettt]

I don't think its too much to discuss this issue in public. Many overweight people are interested in religious life; its a stretch to see "overweight" as an identifier.

 

I think it is telling that in the publicity photos of the more popular communities, I don't remember seeing a significantly overweight candidate -- unusual given the prevalence of this problem in our society, if there is no policy against it. There are many communities that accept significantly overweight individuals into formation. But my understanding is that the more popular communities are more selective in general about their candidates. Not to be cynical, but they can afford to be.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Lilllabettt

[Sponsa-Christi]

...Her SD told her that (insensitively, if you ask me), that a seriously overweight sister doesn't look like she follows the vow of poverty very well. 

 

Bear with me while I vent a little, but it really bothers me that a priest (presuming the SD is a priest) would say something like this. Not only because it must have been hurtful to the discerner in question, but also because it seems like this reflects a somewhat superficial understanding of the nature and value of religious/consecrated life.

 

IMHO, the important thing is that a religious actually live out the vow of poverty well, not that she look like she does to a casual outside observer. My thought is that anyone who knows a religious for any length of time will be able to recognize her faithfulness to her vows by her actions, instead of going by uncharitable assumptions that might be construed solely on the basis of her physical appearance.

 

I suppose for priests and consecrated persons, outward appearances can be important insofar as we need to convey respect for ourselves and the people we serve (i.e., in matters of basic hygiene and grooming), in insofar as we need to avoid giving scandal (such as making sure we don’t put ourselves in situations which could be easily misunderstood). And of course, there is a lot of value in being a visible public witness.

 

But, I think too often, in our contemporary Catholic culture (particularly in the United States, I think, and also particularly among younger people) there’s a tendency to equate “fervent, holy religious” with “looks good on a vocations poster.” This is problematic for a number of reasons, not the least of which is because it can distract us from coming to understand the true depth and complexity of God’s call.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Sponsa-Christi

[AveMariaPurissima]

When I entered the convent, I was overweight.  Shortly after entering, I was told that I needed to lose weight.  Between work, exercise (the situation of our monastery required lots of walking), and dieting (sort of -- I tried to avoid bread as much as possible, as well as limiting portion size,) I did lose a significant amount of weight.  (To be honest, I still need to lose more, but that's beside the point.)  Being told that I needed to lose weight, and the frequent emphasis on weight in general (I found out that there were a number of other Sisters who were "on a diet," as well as Sisters who were deemed too skinny and encouraged to eat more), made me embarrassed, self-conscious, and uncomfortable.  There were occasions when I felt like those of us who were overweight (which, btw, was considered to be "over 150 lbs.") were made fun of a bit.  I know that no one was trying to be mean or uncharitable, but it still hurt.

Sorry.  I guess this was just me venting.  I guess I can see both sides of the issue, though, and other posters have made good points.

[emma8201986]

I would never have posted this inquiry without asking permission. This woman visits VS from time to time as a lurker. I have encouraged her to join us but she has not yet done so. I agree with your comments, Ave, and I suggested that so insensitive a person should not be an SD but my friend declines to change. I am sure she will be very interested in responses.

[cartermia]

I am a bit over weight but most of mine is muscle (muscle weighs more then fat.) I am 5'10 1/2" and 190 lb but I don't think I am that overweight.

Edited January 17, 2014 by cartermia

[Spem in alium]

It is a shame that this has happened to your friend. Some of the Sisters I know are overweight, but it doesn't at all diminish for me their holiness. Actually, one of the Sisters I'm closest to is overweight, and I consider her a wonderful role model. 

 

But, I think too often, in our contemporary Catholic culture (particularly in the United States, I think, and also particularly among younger people) there’s a tendency to equate “fervent, holy religious” with “looks good on a vocations poster.” This is problematic for a number of reasons, not the least of which is because it can distract us from coming to understand the true depth and complexity of God’s call.

Totally agree. I have a rare physical condition that makes me look different to most other people, and so when I began discerning and speaking about it with people I trusted, I found that I was repeatedly asked whether I was sure that I wasn't trying to "run away from life" because of my condition. While some people who expressed this concern were being genuine, I found that more often than not I was hearing it from people who doubted my self-confidence (and basically just thought that I saw religious life as a kind of fallback). And I'm sure some congregations wouldn't take me because I don't look right (so you'll never see me on a vocations poster!), even though my condition isn't seriously limiting. It is sad that we often can't move past outward appearances especially in the context of vocations, which are so beautiful and deep. 

 

[Pia Jesu]

How true, Spem in Alium, that "it is sad that we often can't move past outward appearances especially in the context of vocations, which are so beautiful and deep."  We are all precious children of God--called to know and love Him in this world and the next.  To define who and what we (and others) are.in terms of physicality misses this whole point.  As He also calls us to love the people put in our paths,

you would hope that vocation directors would view weight as a single aspect of the candidate before them.  Worthy of discussion?

Sure.  There is no question that obesity can be harmful to one's health.  But rather than making it a matter of discrimination, it could

be used as an opportunity to help someone.  Handled sensitively, it could be a blessing for both the community and the candidate!

 

Note:  The Mother Superior of my former congregation was a member of Weight Watchers while I was there...!

 

[miserere55]

Emma, thanks for sharing about your friend.  I think it is really sad for nuns and priests, who should know to look past outward appearance, to say those things to your friend.  I do applaud this woman for continuing her discernment.

 

I entered a very strict cloistered monastery when I was a little overweight.  We had a physically demanding work schedule, perpetual fast, and plenty of bending, bowing and kneeling.  And, yet, I gained a whole lot of weight as a postulant and it kept climbing.  Our diet was mostly starch and sugar, which is bad for my body type.  We had dessert, third portion, after every dinner.  It was passed out by the Abbess, who gave heaping bowlfuls to the novitiate sisters.  We had to eat what we were given.  The people who lived around the monastery would bring tons of donuts and cakes to the nuns.  Much of it was stale, but our Rule said that we were to eat what was donated, and eat we did, (but only at mealtime).  I wont eat donuts to this day.  I gained so much weight, that I begged for permission to diet prior to my Clothing.  I was given permission.  How odd to be dieting in a monastery that has perpetual fast.

 

Maximillion is right though, most people lose weight after entering a convent, especially when entering the monastic life.

[OnlySunshine]

Emma, thanks for sharing about your friend.  I think it is really sad for nuns and priests, who should know to look past outward appearance, to say those things to your friend.  I do applaud this woman for continuing her discernment.

 

I entered a very strict cloistered monastery when I was a little overweight.  We had a physically demanding work schedule, perpetual fast, and plenty of bending, bowing and kneeling.  And, yet, I gained a whole lot of weight as a postulant and it kept climbing.  Our diet was mostly starch and sugar, which is bad for my body type.  We had dessert, third portion, after every dinner.  It was passed out by the Abbess, who gave heaping bowlfuls to the novitiate sisters.  We had to eat what we were given.  The people who lived around the monastery would bring tons of donuts and cakes to the nuns.  Much of it was stale, but our Rule said that we were to eat what was donated, and eat we did, (but only at mealtime).  I wont eat donuts to this day.  I gained so much weight, that I begged for permission to diet prior to my Clothing.  I was given permission.  How odd to be dieting in a monastery that has perpetual fast.

 

Maximillion is right though, most people lose weight after entering a convent, especially when entering the monastic life.

 

That diet really doesn't sound healthy.  I wouldn't want to eat like that because I have diabetes in my family and I'm trying to prevent from getting it myself.  Not to mention the fact that I'm gluten-intolerant (maybe Celiac disease but I can't say for sure since I haven't been tested; all I know is I get really sick when I accidentally eat wheat/gluten).  There is a reason for the food pyramid - every meal is supposed to be well rounded. 

[NotreDame]

Emma, thanks for sharing about your friend.  I think it is really sad for nuns and priests, who should know to look past outward appearance, to say those things to your friend.  I do applaud this woman for continuing her discernment.

 

I entered a very strict cloistered monastery when I was a little overweight.  We had a physically demanding work schedule, perpetual fast, and plenty of bending, bowing and kneeling.  And, yet, I gained a whole lot of weight as a postulant and it kept climbing.  Our diet was mostly starch and sugar, which is bad for my body type.  We had dessert, third portion, after every dinner.  It was passed out by the Abbess, who gave heaping bowlfuls to the novitiate sisters.  We had to eat what we were given.  The people who lived around the monastery would bring tons of donuts and cakes to the nuns.  Much of it was stale, but our Rule said that we were to eat what was donated, and eat we did, (but only at mealtime).  I wont eat donuts to this day.  I gained so much weight, that I begged for permission to diet prior to my Clothing.  I was given permission.  How odd to be dieting in a monastery that has perpetual fast.

 

Maximillion is right though, most people lose weight after entering a convent, especially when entering the monastic life.

 

This would be bad for any body type.  What you are describing is a high-fat, high-carb, low-protein diet.  You all probably didn't sleep much either, which would increase weight gain as well.  I wouldn't be surprised if many of those eating like this end up with type II diabetes later in age.

 

I know a group that tends to eat much like you described.  All the men are overweight, prematurely bald, and - to a man - look at least 10 years older than they are. 

 

Dietary approaches that were developed in times of scarcity probably need to be changed to accommodate the current overabundance of fatty, starchy food. 

 

In fact, if they wanted some dietary penance, they could try giving up carbs for a few days.  It's a lot harder than giving up meat! (at least for most people.)
 

[By His Grace Alone]

I don't usually post anymore for reasons which I would rather not go into. That said, I could no longer hang back in this instance. It is quite clear to me that there are prejudices within religious life that just go on and on. It seems to be all about not only how you look but your age, and heaven forbid you are not physically perfect. The state of your health, no matter how excellent it may be, absolutely doesn't matter. It is all about numbers....be they weight or age. My experience whilst discerning is that there is little to no kindness and compassion within female religious orders for the most part. For these reasons, unlike you friend, I decided that enough is enough and am done with it. Who and what I am apparently mean nothing at all. Capability and ability mean nothing. It is all looks and numbers, period. Unfortunately, she will always be up against that wall of prejudice and preconceived notions. Well, I hope you all forgive me but I simply had to put my two cents in!

[Pia Jesu]

No forgiveness needed, By His Grace Alone...and welcome back!  Your comments are appreciated.  Thank God for communities like the Benedictines of Jesus Crucified--who look at candidates beyond their physical, mental health and age--to the state of their spiritual health first!

 

http://www.benedictinesjc.org/aboutUs.html

 

Let's pray for each other!

[miserere55]

"By His Grace Alone" thank you for your thoughts and for sharing them!!!  It is true that there. will always be prejudice for older and overweight vocations.  I think this is because we are at the mercy of human beings.  However, like" Pia Jesu" said, there are communities that overlook the appearance and give these people a chance.  What someone does with that chance makes all the difference.  The older vocations and the phat vocations need to show the communities that they can become saints too.  I also think that the tides are changing for older vocations.  When I entered a strict monastery, I was the youngest of 5 postulants by 18 years, and I wasn't in my 20's.  Then as a novice, the monastery accepted a 60+ year old, brittle diabetic..  Most of those women are still in the monastery.  Yes, these women had to overcome prejudice about their age (and a few their weight), but they did it and persevered.  Now they are beloved members of their monastery. 

 

This is just a funny story and I don't want to hurt anyone by telling it:  I was 28 when my hair was 100% white (and I mean "white").  So, when I was 31. in the monastery, and being clothed I had white hair.  Several postulants before me, who were in their 50's and 60's had varying shades of the same color hair and none of it bothered the Abbess - until my clothing.  Three days prior to the event, the Abbess gave me hair color and told me to dye my hair.  She said I was too young to have that color hair.  So, I had to color my hair before my clothing just for the sake of the wedding dress pictures - after the ceremony my hair was completely covered.  I was not in any way offended.  My white hair bothered the Abbess but it never bothered me.

 

So for all the women out there, who are not perfect and who are not in their twenties, rise above the discrimination and enter the convent anyway!!  And remember, St. Thomas Aquinas was VERY BIG. 

Edited January 18, 2014 by miserere55

[Sister Marie]

I think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed by the discerner with the community for a number of reasons.  I don't think that it is necessarily wrong to have this conversation as long as its done as part of discernment both on the part of the woman and the community.  First, the health concern is a valid one.  Physically, we know that being overweight can be a contributing factor to a variety of illnesses that a community might not be able to support.  While not everyone is meant to be a size 0, there is a point where excessive weight is not healthy.  That point is a highly individual one which is another reason why this needs to be a conversation that happens with respect and care in the process of discernment.  Only the candidate can answer some of these questions.  Second, I think there might be a valid question from the community about why the person is overweight.  Could there be an underlying medical issue?  Is it a sedentary lifestyle with poor eating habits?

 

Personally, I think the idea that it reflects on poverty is a far-stretch.  I don't think that anyone would say "Look at that overweight sister, she must not follow poverty."  It's just too big of a jump for most people to make.  I think it is much more possible to view weight issues in the lens of healthy living - emotionally, physically, and mentally.  In formation, often candidates have to find new ways of dealing with a variety of new emotions and its imperative for them to find healthy outlets to deal with the many emotions they will experience.  Often what we did when we were in the world doesn't work in the convent anymore.  All of us have mechanisms we use to deal with unpleasant emotions like anxiety, sadness, or anger.  Maybe when we were in the world we had a drink after a bad day at work.  That doesn't work in the convent.  Maybe when we were in the world we watched a movie when we were sad about something.  That doesn't work in the convent.  Maybe when we were in the world we called a friend when we were feeling anxious.  Again, that doesn't work in the convent.  For some people, maybe eating was one of those mechanisms.  If it was, its worthwhile to talk about before entrance so that the person can find some other outlet that will be compatible with religious life and that will save them a lot of distress throughout formation.  

 

Now I know it sounds like I'm defending the community, but I have something to say about that too.  I also want to say that this seems to be a practice that is across the board so please take my comments as generally as possible.  I am not speaking about one particular community but about a trend.  I absolutely do believe that some vocational materials purposely feature only young, beautiful, thin sisters.  I do believe that this is absolutely wrong but I think there are both external and internal factors that contribute to this.  Internally, and I have no idea why, there is a focus on looks in religious life.  In my community, many sisters remember the "old days" when the sister sacristans were always the tall, thin sisters because they looked beautiful lighting the candles and fixing the sanctuary.  That isn't the case anymore and I don't know where it came from but I still see vestiges of it today.  I do think that it is mostly subconscious but again, different communities can be in different places on the spectrum of caring about looks.  

 

Externally, what is the response to these vocation promotion items that only show young, beautiful, thin religious women?  "Beautiful!" "Radiant!"  And they are and there is nothing wrong with rejoicing in the beauty of a life given to God.  However, I think we encourage some of this with all the talk of externals - habits, veils, rings, wedding dresses...  A lot of the talk of discerners is also about "looks."  There's nothing wrong with talking about those things but sometimes it is over the top and it can encourage the focus on externals that mean little in comparison with the greatness of life.  

 

So maybe we both have something to work on; communities on acceptance of imperfections and us on a renewed focus on the internal life instead of the external look.

 

I know this is long but, just two more things and then I promise I'm going to stop typing!

 

I feel very uncomfortable when people come up to me and tell me what a beautiful young sister I am for a few reasons.  First, I'm really pretty ordinary looking.  No one would notice me but for the habit I wear which is quite "poor, simple, and becoming."  I could be a rotten mean nun but people would still like me because of this "pretty young sister" thing.  Secondly, when you enter religious life, your world becomes so much bigger.  You become bigger.  Beautiful or pretty doesn't really make sense in that bigger worldview.  It's too small.  I want to be holy.  I'm not yet but there is a desire in me that has caused me to make radical decisions and take risks that are so much more a part of who I am of my life than this snapshot of the pretty little nun.  

 

The last but most important thing is that I think vocation promoters should be showing the goal.  The most beautiful sisters I've met are my sisters who are at the end of their lives. I want to see what the end of the desire I feel now is and I've seen it in their faces - peace, love, gentleness, joy, sacrifice, selflessness, full lives, rich lives, wisdom, grace.  None of those words do justice to the beauty of a life already spent for God and nice skin, a thin body, or colored hair can't come close to it either.  I owe my vocation to the women at the end of their lives who showed me what my life could be.  

[Eowyn]

I think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed by the discerner with the community for a number of reasons.  I don't think that it is necessarily wrong to have this conversation as long as its done as part of discernment both on the part of the woman and the community.  First, the health concern is a valid one.  Physically, we know that being overweight can be a contributing factor to a variety of illnesses that a community might not be able to support.  While not everyone is meant to be a size 0, there is a point where excessive weight is not healthy.  That point is a highly individual one which is another reason why this needs to be a conversation that happens with respect and care in the process of discernment.  Only the candidate can answer some of these questions.  Second, I think there might be a valid question from the community about why the person is overweight.  Could there be an underlying medical issue?  Is it a sedentary lifestyle with poor eating habits?

 

 

 

Sister Marie, thank you for this.  I have a lot of weight to lose myself.  Not to get ready to join a community, but to be healthy.  I would hope that it wouldn't interfere with my discerning, but I would want a community to know that it's something I'm working on. 

[DameAgnes]

Great post, Sister Marie!

 

It's funny but until the subject came up I have never noticed it but yes, there are some communities who very clearly never seem to have a chubby postulant. Seems to me that unless she's morbidly obese, which could affect her ability even to physically pursue her vocation, you give a girl a chance.

 

Our humanness fixates on appearances. How many of us have said, "Oh, I like that order" simply on the basis of a beautiful habit? Nuns are human beings, too, and they can't help noticing how we look. The weight issue is interesting. I've known women who have entered and lost weight, and others who have entered and gained, and it's always for a variety of reasons -- usually (but not always) the sisters who have lost have done so b/c of the more regulated eating plan (the end of snacking between meals, for instance) and a more active life (let's face it, nuns are busy people; they don't spend hours online or laying on a couch reading). Sometimes the sisters gain because they're eating more starches and there are always desserts, which they were not used to.

 

I knew a nun who was quite chunky when she entered the cloister and she dropped weight like crazy in her postulant year -- she lost, like 75 pounds, and became almost alarmingly thin. Seems the loss of weight actually brought out an issue of anxiety that she had medicated through food, and once she lost that "medication" and lost the "shield" that the fat provided her with, she had to deal with what was really at her core. It proved very disruptive to her spiritual life and to the community so she decided to leave and work on her issues. She didn't feel it was fair to be half-minded to the community throughout her novitiate. The cloister, more than anything I've ever seen, seems to make a woman have to really face who she is. That's not always easy.

[ChristinaTherese]

I feel very uncomfortable when people come up to me and tell me what a beautiful young sister I am for a few reasons.  First, I'm really pretty ordinary looking.  No one would notice me but for the habit I wear which is quite "poor, simple, and becoming."  I could be a rotten mean nun but people would still like me because of this "pretty young sister" thing.  Secondly, when you enter religious life, your world becomes so much bigger.  You become bigger.  Beautiful or pretty doesn't really make sense in that bigger worldview.  It's too small.  I want to be holy.  I'm not yet but there is a desire in me that has caused me to make radical decisions and take risks that are so much more a part of who I am of my life than this snapshot of the pretty little nun.  

 

The last but most important thing is that I think vocation promoters should be showing the goal.  The most beautiful sisters I've met are my sisters who are at the end of their lives. I want to see what the end of the desire I feel now is and I've seen it in their faces - peace, love, gentleness, joy, sacrifice, selflessness, full lives, rich lives, wisdom, grace.  None of those words do justice to the beauty of a life already spent for God and nice skin, a thin body, or colored hair can't come close to it either.  I owe my vocation to the women at the end of their lives who showed me what my life could be.  

Just as a quick comment, whenever I say that a Sister is beautiful (and I do, relatively often, although it pretty much stays inside my head) I'm thinking more about internal things like you listed in the second bolded section. I might also be thinking about physical things, but I'm mostly thinking about internal ones. But then again, I've always been weird and thought that modern conceptions of beauty were stupid, and I'd pretty much never tell a Sister that I thought she was beautiful to her face.