Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 When the kneeling faithful were accused of being "rebellious" or "disobedient" for not standing during Communion this is how Rome responded. The same idea applies to you, you cannot and should not judge others who choose to kneel where it has been traditional to do so or is actually the Universal Norm (rather a local norm suggested by a bishop). So you've made posts about postures after receiving Communion and this one regarding the time of receiving Communion. Where is your proof regarding the actual topic regarding the posture during the Lamb of God? Surely that would be addressed SPECIFICALLY if "Rome" wanted to undermine the authority of the Bishop to mandate this posture. And I am not one of the "liturgical police," btw. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the possibly of having a discussion with ONE PERSON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) When I converted to Catholicism 20 years ago, there was at that time a controversy about this in our parish. And I decided that I would kneel because others told me it was "more reverent." So that's what I did until one day the pastor ranted and raved about some of us being "defiant" at daily Mass, and I looked into it further, and found that he was right. I still prefer to kneel at that time, and I of course do when I am in other dioceses where that is the norm, but in my diocese, I subordinate my personal preference to the bishop who has this authority. That is what is "more reverent." NOT doing my own thing. So what would you say to a new Catholic who is confused and who doesn't know what to do? (In a dioceses where standing is the norm). This is the answer that I'm hearing: The Bishop says that you're supposed to stand, but really, you don't have to pay any attention to him. Just do what feels right for you... (I have seen this reasoning used to justify BC). Edited January 23, 2014 by Pliny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Pliny, if this person is actually your friend, then you might open a conversation with them by asking them why they kneel and if they know that the bishop decided the norm in your diocese is standing. A conversation, not a confrontation. Ultimately, other than a conversation where you explain why the bishop decided to making standing the norm (maybe talk about the liturgical meaning of the posture) and the merits of unity/obedience, I don't think there's anything you can do. While I'm not sure it's necessarily a sin to be confrontational or accusatory about it, I think it might be an imperfection, if that makes any sense. A conversation and not a confrontation--I agree 100%. What I would like to understand, though, is WHY anyone would want to put themselves in a special position, and do so knowing the bishop prefers a particular posture and the unity it provides. To me, it's disrespectful and sews seeds of division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 So you've made posts about postures after receiving Communion and this one regarding the time of receiving Communion. Where is your proof regarding the actual topic regarding the posture during the Lamb of God? Surely that would be addressed SPECIFICALLY if "Rome" wanted to undermine the authority of the Bishop to mandate this posture. Before, during, and after = "various parts of... the Holy Mass"Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free. Francis Cardinal Arinze Prefect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 There is a difference between grave, public scandal which calls for immediate correction and this non-issue which has already been settled by Rome. This non-issue isn't scandal and doesn't hurt anyone - spiritually or physically. As such, it's not within a layperson's competence to correct in this matter. Please cite the document that proves your assertion about "competence" in this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Again KOC, that answer is out of context and the last sentence about "kneel or sit" is directed at the specific question regarding the posture after receiving Communion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Again KOC, that answer is out of context and the last sentence about "kneel or sit" is directed at the specific question regarding the posture after receiving Communion. Nope. You simply cannot admit mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 It's a yes or no question, you morons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I should have had the sense to just go with my title. The OP, thankfully redacted by Winchester, was pointless. I am ashamed. fxd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Not true. I'm looking at the evidence presented here as if I'm looking for justification to kneel instead of stand. And as a thorough and thoughtful person who needs more than careless google research to prove or disprove a point, what you present is not convincing. What I would like to see is something that specifically addresses the Lamb of God posture and that a Bishop has no authority to enforce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Not true. I'm looking at the evidence presented here as if I'm looking for justification to kneel instead of stand. And as a thorough and thoughtful person who needs more than careless google research to prove or disprove a point, what you present is not convincing. What I would like to see is something that specifically addresses the Lamb of God posture and that a Bishop has no authority to enforce it. The particular part of the GRIM that the Cardinal cites pertains to posture throughout the whole of the Mass. Not just after Communion. So again "various parts" does mean before, during and after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Strain the gnat, swallow the camel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Strain the gnat, swallow the camel... Good one. I'll tell that to the Bishop. I'm sure he'll appreciate my informing him that his mandate to stand doesn't mean squat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Good one. I'll tell that to the Bishop. I'm sure he'll appreciate my informing him that his mandate to stand doesn't mean squat. What I'm saying is that there are more important things to worry about in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 The Bishop says that you're supposed to stand, but really, you don't have to pay any attention to him. Just do what feels right for you... (I have seen this reasoning used to justify BC). :blink: what the.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now