Consecration Of Virgins Ceremony And Evangelical Poverty?

[abrideofChrist]

Yes, ladies, continue on.  Oremus, you have my prayers.  I will no longer participate in this thread. 

[oremus1]

Oremus1:

 

As the mod who focuses primarily on vocation station, I felt compelled to post and ask that the discussion does not continue in a debate like manner.

 

We have had discussions pertaining to consecrated virginity disintegrate into a full fledged debate in the past.  It is quite negative in vocation station, and really, really did put consecrated virginity in a bad light (due to the fact that the back and forth involved consecrated virgins).

----------------------------

So again -- please do *not* continue in a debate like fashion.  If it does again as a moderator I reserve the right to move it into debate table, so that the non-debate culture of Vocation Station is preserved.

 

Oh yes, wow i didnt realise it was so controversial! sure ok no more debating. but if you can rename it to a more general title, so that it does not matter that it has gone off topic, that would be good? someone offered to share some research as to the valid minister of the consecration, which while nothing to do with the title, i would greatly appreciate, and it may benefit people searching for the same info, also i would not wish people reading the forum to be mislead by the title of the thread.

Edited January 27, 2014 by oremus1

[God's Beloved]

Dear , I'm writing amidst a lot of other things to do. But this topic is so important. I did spend an hour in the library trying to trace the reference to the CDF statement I had read earlier. I'm really not in the position to give more time since there are other priorities. It is very clear in my country that the consecration cannot be delegated to a priest.

 

The situation you're describing is not different from some other parts of the world. What I read inbetween the lines is that there are some women  who are ex-religious who wish to continue living in the  consecrated state or there are women starting new kind of vocatons with a different charism......BUT THE CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE A RITE FOR THEM....so they are modifying the rite meant only for virgins, to fulfill their need. The bishops without seeing the seriousness of this , are allowing this to happen.

 

The solution to the problem is that the Church could formulate another ceremony for such new vocations or ex -religious. I don't think the Order of virgins which is a beautiful vocation by itself should be strangulated.

 

Oremus1, since you are so keen to continue this discussion, how about sending a PM ...personal message to the persons you wish to invite for doing so....this way the conversation will not be public.

[oremus1]

Oremus1, since you are so keen to continue this discussion, how about sending a PM ...personal message to the persons you wish to invite for doing so....this way the conversation will not be public.

Good idea , many thanks :)

[cmaD2006]

A reminder: THIS IS NOT DEBATE TABLE.  Please stop the back and forth debating.  If it continues I *will* move this thread into debate table.

 

The discussion until about a page ago was fine.

 

 

So again -- please do *not* continue in a debate like fashion.  If it does again as a moderator I reserve the right to move it into debate table, so that the non-debate culture of Vocation Station is preserved.

 

Sorry I felt a further clarification is in order ... those used to VS probably understand what I mean but the problem I had with the thread is the confrontational tone and the debate-like atmosphere that was developing.

 

A reminder that confrontational tones and debates are not permitted in VS, please try to keep it calm.  If anyone was offended by my directness sorry -- it is just my attempt at being like "a Mama Bear trying to protect her Cubs".

[Feankie]

So again -- please do *not* continue in a debate like fashion.  If it does again as a moderator I reserve the right to move it into debate table

 

Bless you!

[oremus1]

As a new phatmasser, it did not occur to me that consecrated virginity was at all a contentious subject. but following this thread, i also saw found this http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/page-17

 

now i can understand why this sort of thread ends up in the debate forum. wow :-o

[Cecilia]

Oremus1, a consecrated virgin who lives in the world does not take a vow of poverty. Please read the debate table where I will put a document for you to read.

[Sponsa-Christi]

Hi Cecilia,

 

It is true that consecrated virgins living in the world don't take a formal vow of poverty like religious do. But since we are nevertheless consecrated persons in the Church, there are a lot of reasons to suppose that we should still strive to live in a spirit of evangelical poverty. And so for the most part, I think it's good when we can have charitable discussions about the best ways to live out this spirit of evangelical poverty in our daily lives.

 

Returning to the original topic of this thread, my personal opinion is that aspiring consecrated virgins should avoid lavishness and err on the side of simplicity in planning the material details of their consecration day. E.g., I don't think consecrations should be quite as elaborate as many "normal" weddings are these days.

 

However, avoiding lavishness and luxury is not the same thing as neglecting to celebrate a consecration with the appropriate level of solemnity! A consecrated virgin-to-be who is committed to celebrating with a dignified simplicity can still have a beautiful consecration day with all the customary bridal symbolism. 

[BarbTherese]

Might be off topic a bit.  I recall my confirmation dress and veil, made by my Nana - it was quite plain and very simple.  I was disappointed that it was nothing like the beautiful dress and veil I had for my First Communion.  When I complained to Nana, she replied that The Holy Spirit would adorn my dress for me in the seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit I would receive at Confirmation (wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, fortitude, piety and fear of The Lord).  It made my Confirmation particularly moving for me and in a deeply spiritual way and led to a lifelong devotion to The Holy Spirit.  Whereas at my First Communion thanksgiving, all I could do was apologize to Jesus because I could not get my mind off the great celebration and all the goodies we would have back pre V2 in our Communion breakfast celebration immediately after our First Communion Mass.  Many years later, I realized that with that very real apologetic stance, I was praying.  My Confirmation thanksgiving did manage to aspire to something much deeper because of what Nana had said to me about my dress and The Gifts of The Holy Spirit at Confirmation.  Shortly after my Confirmation and through ardent prayers to The Holy Spirit what everyone called a miracle occurred for me - and to this day it boggles my mind to think about what happened.

 

I think personally were I to have the vocation to Consecrated Virginity (and impossible), I would choose something outstanding in its beautiful simplicity (Leonardo Da Vinci: "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication").  I do love to see a bride in something that is the essence of simplicity and outstandingly beautiful in that simplicity.  There strikes me as something totally virginal about it.   But then I do not have nor will ever have a call to consecrated virginity and beauty really is according to the eye of the beholder.

[Cecilia]

Barbara Therese, sponsa Christi, Let us remember all Catholics are to live the evangelical counsels. Simplicity becomes everyone. Adornment by the Holy Spirit in receiving sacraments should be prayed for by all. A ruby ring may assist in focusing the candidate’s soul on her deepest intentions.

[oremus1]

Barbara Therese, sponsa Christi, Let us remember all Catholics are to live the evangelical counsels. Simplicity becomes everyone. Adornment by the Holy Spirit in receiving sacraments should be prayed for by all. A ruby ring may assist in focusing the candidate’s soul on her deepest intentions.

bearing in mind a) it would be second hand b) i wanted a red stone as a reminder of the Precious Blood and c) just because many would say, 'you should be praying instead of thinking of the ceremony or such details' does not mean that these things just happen! such things cost money, take time to save up for and hence one must plan ahead. even beautiful music takes time to select and plan.

 

@ Sponsa - what do you think of St Clare and St Therese more lavish gowns and such? or beautiful priestly vestments?

[oremus1]

Might be off topic a bit.  I recall my confirmation dress and veil, made by my Nana - it was quite plain and very simple.  I was disappointed that it was nothing like the beautiful dress and veil I had for my First Communion.  When I complained to Nana, she replied that The Holy Spirit would adorn my dress for me in the seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit I would receive at Confirmation (wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, fortitude, piety and fear of The Lord).  It made my Confirmation particularly moving for me and in a deeply spiritual way and led to a lifelong devotion to The Holy Spirit.  Whereas at my First Communion thanksgiving, all I could do was apologize to Jesus because I could not get my mind off the great celebration and all the goodies we would have back pre V2 in our Communion breakfast celebration immediately after our First Communion Mass.  Many years later, I realized that with that very real apologetic stance, I was praying.  My Confirmation thanksgiving did manage to aspire to something much deeper because of what Nana had said to me about my dress and The Gifts of The Holy Spirit at Confirmation.  Shortly after my Confirmation and through ardent prayers to The Holy Spirit what everyone called a miracle occurred for me - and to this day it boggles my mind to think about what happened.

 

I think personally were I to have the vocation to Consecrated Virginity (and impossible), I would choose something outstanding in its beautiful simplicity (Leonardo Da Vinci: "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication").  I do love to see a bride in something that is the essence of simplicity and outstandingly beautiful in that simplicity.  There strikes me as something totally virginal about it.   But then I do not have nor will ever have a call to consecrated virginity and beauty really is according to the eye of the beholder.

can you link to an example of what sort of things you mean?

[brandelynmarie]

Oremus1 beat me to it, but I was thinking of St. Clare, St. Therese, & all religious & consecrated who give of themselves to Him wrapped in beauty whether it's by dress, by flowers, by ring, or even by song :) ....

[Sponsa-Christi]

 

 

@ Sponsa - what do you think of St Clare and St Therese more lavish gowns and such? or beautiful priestly vestments?

 

Well, first of all, I have to admit that my sense of the rightness of consecrated virgins tending towards simplicity in their "wedding planning" is ultimately sort of a matter of deep spiritual instinct for me. So at the end of the day I'm not sure I'll be able to put my thoughts into words in a way that will be satisfying to everyone coming from a more juridical perspective.

 

But with that being said, some of my thought on this:

 

I do think concept of an appropriate evangelical simplicity can be somewhat relative. I.e., there is no one objective line etched in stone to determine precisely when a dress or ring becomes "too much" or too extravagant. And, sometimes the context can justify something being a bit more elaborate--e.g., I think St. Therese's stylish and expensive wedding dress was made from lace which her own mother had made. So in some ways, this was a way to honor her mother's memory at one of the most important moments of St. Therese's life, and not simply luxury for its own sake. 

 

Also, one thing that strikes me about St. Therese and St. Clare dressing in their best finery is that, during their "wedding," they made a show of removing their beautiful, expensive worldly clothes in order to put on a rough, poor habit. So in this sense, their elaborate dresses were actually more of a foil for the very concrete poverty they were embracing. But, since consecrated virgins obviously don't enter into a life of poverty in this same kind of dramatic way, I think it might be best if during our consecrations we demonstrate the evangelical simplicity which we have already embraced and in which we intend to persevere.

 

In terms of priests wearing fancy vestments...I do think even here it's possible for a priest to go overboard, too! However, since I do believe that in general lovely vestments are a good thing, I guess I think it's more appropriate for a priest to have elaborate vestments because vestments tend to be ordered more towards the liturgical action at hand, rather than towards the priest himself. While consecrated virgins do represent the Church as the bride of Christ, I think at our own consecrations we have a much more individual, personal role to play than a priest does when he celebrates a sacrament. So, I think a luxurious wedding dress has more of a potential to be self-glorifying for a consecrated virgin that a nice chasuble would be for a priest.

[oremus1]

Well, first of all, I have to admit that my sense of the rightness of consecrated virgins tending towards simplicity in their "wedding planning" is ultimately sort of a matter of deep spiritual instinct for me. So at the end of the day I'm not sure I'll be able to put my thoughts into words in a way that will be satisfying to everyone coming from a more juridical perspective.

 

But with that being said, some of my thought on this:

 

I do think concept of an appropriate evangelical simplicity can be somewhat relative. I.e., there is no one objective line etched in stone to determine precisely when a dress or ring becomes "too much" or too extravagant. And, sometimes the context can justify something being a bit more elaborate--e.g., I think St. Therese's stylish and expensive wedding dress was made from lace which her own mother had made. So in some ways, this was a way to honor her mother's memory at one of the most important moments of St. Therese's life, and not simply luxury for its own sake. 

 

Also, one thing that strikes me about St. Therese and St. Clare dressing in their best finery is that, during their "wedding," they made a show of removing their beautiful, expensive worldly clothes in order to put on a rough, poor habit. So in this sense, their elaborate dresses were actually more of a foil for the very concrete poverty they were embracing. But, since consecrated virgins obviously don't enter into a life of poverty in this same kind of dramatic way, I think it might be best if during our consecrations we demonstrate the evangelical simplicity which we have already embraced and in which we intend to persevere.

 

In terms of priests wearing fancy vestments...I do think even here it's possible for a priest to go overboard, too! However, since I do believe that in general lovely vestments are a good thing, I guess I think it's more appropriate for a priest to have elaborate vestments because vestments tend to be ordered more towards the liturgical action at hand, rather than towards the priest himself. While consecrated virgins do represent the Church as the bride of Christ, I think at our own consecrations we have a much more individual, personal role to play than a priest does when he celebrates a sacrament. So, I think a luxurious wedding dress has more of a potential to be self-glorifying for a consecrated virgin that a nice chasuble would be for a priest.

 

personally, if i was rich, i would build many large gold tabernacles for the Lord, i would commission many artists to paint murals in all churches like in the Sistine Chapel. I would have large bowls of incense, the very finest in every church. i would train many many musicians in beautiful sacred music for the Holy Mass. if i saw a priest, I would want him to be in the very finest vestments. and if i saw a girl wanting to consecrate herself to God, I would personally commission the very best tailors to make her the finest dress possible. not to glory herself, or her sacrifice she has made (through noble it is). but to glory the significance of what she is doing and what it represents. that girl is being espoused to God! i think it should acutally be more visually dramatic tthan matrinomy. i would actually think it good if the most luxurious item she owned in her life was the ring she was given at her consecration to marry the Lord!!! of course, the rest of her life should be in evangelical poverty.

 

i think it is good to remember that our consecration is not just for ourselves, but for those the many in the congregation who do NOT know what it is or its importance. many have never heard virginity being exhalted, only celibacy being defended. most would not think it a beautiful thing to commit yourself to that state for life. we are visual people. what they see and hear informs their intellect. if they see a person in poor garb, while we may know the value of the poverty it repreesents, the average Joe in the pew just sees a person in a poor garb making a vow of some sort - he does not understand. but if Joe saw a young girl in a dramatic beautiful wedding gown, he might say to himself, what sort of groom will this beautiful bride marry, this looks like a wedding, the groom must be very important. if Joe smells fine incense and hears sacred music, he might be edified toward the lord. seeing it look like marriage might make him reflect on the eschataological dimension of his own vocation.

 

i personally really like this lady's consecration, there is a lot of symbolism there: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zlVyJzWOgIY/SoeG1spDa1I/AAAAAAAABVs/jbIFGRkQlaE/s1600-h/Consecration8-15-09053.JPG

this is a recent consecration, quite grand: http://www.flickr.com/photos/98771997@N02/11635450026/

of the simpler, this one is beautiful: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jxCTib2Hz3M/UAaSuKhay_I/AAAAAAAAEZ8/H3KNHohxYrk/s1600/Emily%2Bconsecration%2B1.jpg

and this: http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/BJxXVUENRUg/hqdefault.jpg

 

Others may feel called to a simpler attire etc: http://www.magnificat.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/DSC00076.jpg

 

Others, the more extravagant:http://passionofchrist-lechemindecroix.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/are-medjugorje-apparitions-authentic.html

 

maybe none of these are necessarily wrong. just different visual expressions.

 i hope it is OK i have linked to these images and apologies if any of these people are reading this Phat.

Edited January 29, 2014 by oremus1

[OnlySunshine]

bearing in mind a) it would be second hand b) i wanted a red stone as a reminder of the Precious Blood and c) just because many would say, 'you should be praying instead of thinking of the ceremony or such details' does not mean that these things just happen! such things cost money, take time to save up for and hence one must plan ahead. even beautiful music takes time to select and plan.

 

@ Sponsa - what do you think of St Clare and St Therese more lavish gowns and such? or beautiful priestly vestments?

 

It's beautiful to me that you want the ruby to symbolize the Precious Blood.  I was born in July so my birthstone is ruby and I have a special devotion to Divine Mercy, the Sacred Heart, and the Precious Blood.  If I become a CV, that would be a terrific idea.  :)

[cmaD2006]

 i hope it is OK i have linked to these images and apologies if any of these people are reading this Phat.

 

:) this is fine oremus1 ... the discussion going on right now is fine.

[oremus1]

It's beautiful to me that you want the ruby to symbolize the Precious Blood.  I was born in July so my birthstone is ruby and I have a special devotion to Divine Mercy, the Sacred Heart, and the Precious Blood.  If I become a CV, that would be a terrific idea.  :)

 

when I first made private vows, my private vows ring, which was $5 stainless steel, was mainly to stop guys hitting on me. but actually I find it a useful reminder that the end purpose of my vow is not celibacy, but seeking the espousal of Christ. so I am not actually alone in the hard times. also you don't realise how often you look at your hands each day - whether you are typing, or eating, or reaching for your keys. seeing it there is a constant reminder of how you have dedicated your life. which does not just affect your chastity, but all aspects of yourself and life, who you are, how you think etc. that's why I'd like a reminder of my devotion that I can see. kind of like people who engrave a verse on it I suppose?

 

are you looking to become a CV too? there are so many!

[OnlySunshine]

when I first made private vows, my private vows ring, which was $5 stainless steel, was mainly to stop guys hitting on me. but actually I find it a useful reminder that the end purpose of my vow is not celibacy, but seeking the espousal of Christ. so I am not actually alone in the hard times. also you don't realise how often you look at your hands each day - whether you are typing, or eating, or reaching for your keys. seeing it there is a constant reminder of how you have dedicated your life. which does not just affect your chastity, but all aspects of yourself and life, who you are, how you think etc. that's why I'd like a reminder of my devotion that I can see. kind of like people who engrave a verse on it I suppose?

 

are you looking to become a CV too? there are so many!

 

Yes, I was discerning religious life for over 5 years but realized that God is probably calling me to consecrate myself out in the world.  The Sisters from the order I last applied to suggested it and I had it on my mind before they talked to me.  I think that was a random sign to at least consider this beautiful vocation.  I haven't been able to find a spiritual director so I'm putting discernment on hold right now while I finish school.  :)