Consecrated Virgin In The World - 50 Words Or Less

[Cecilia]

February 8, 2014, page 8, items to which I have received no response --

 

My -- Cecilia's -- original post --

 

I will put quotes from two Magisterial documents below -- to demonstrate the Church teaches members of secular institutes are lay people -- and they are also fully and really consecrated. The documents show there is no debate in the Church -- Sponsa Christi, as you have said there is -- about how members of secular institutes are understood.

[Cecilia]

February 8, 2014, page 8 -- item to which I have received no response --

 

http://www.vatican.v...profile_en.html

 

THE CONGREGATION FOR INSTITUTES OF CONSECRATED LIFE
AND SOCIETIES OF APOSTOLIC LIFE

… 

The Congregation is responsible for everything which concerns institutes of consecrated life (orders and religious congregations, both of men and of women, secular institutes) and societies of apostolic life regarding their government, discipline, studies, goods, rights, and privileges. It is competent also for matters regarding the eremetical life, consecrated virgins and their related associations, and new forms of consecrated life. Its competence extends to all aspects of consecrated life: Christian life, religious life, clerical life; …

 

INSTITUTES OF CONSECRATED LIFE
SOCIETIES OF APOSTOLIC LIFE

 

Religious institutes and secular institutes are the two main categories which constitute the state of consecrated life through profession of the evangelical counsels in the Church. Societies of apostolic life (can. 731.1) have canonical legislation which is in some respects similar to that governing institutes of consecrated life, though they form a separate category.

…

RELIGIOUS INSTITUTES

 

The religious state is a public and complete state of consecrated life. As well as the precepts which are to be observed by all, religious observe the three evangelical counsels of chastity, poverty, and obedience. They bind themselves to observe these by means of vows, which are either perpetual or temporary but renewed when they expire (can. 607.2). These vows are always public vows, i.e. recognized as such by the Church (can. 1192.1). This religious state requires fraternal life in community and also a degree of separation from the world in conformity with the character and purpose of the individual institute (can. 607.2 and 607.3).

…

SECULAR INSTITUTES

…

Christians consecrated to God in Secular Institutes follow Christ by undertaking to observe the three evangelical counsels by means of a sacred commitment, and they dedicate their life to Christ and to the Church, by devoting themselves to the sanctification of the world, particularly by working within the world (can. 710).

 

The word "secular" is meant to underline the fact that the persons who make profession in this state of consecrated life do not change the status they have as in the world, and they continue to live and to work in the midst of the people of God in the normal conditions of their own social setting (can. 711; can. 713.2) according to the secular style of life which is proper to them.

[Cecilia]

February 8, 2014, page 8 -- item to which I have received no response --

 

http://www.vatican.v...-cristo_en.html

 

CONGREGATION FOR INSTITUTES OF CONSECRATED LIFE
AND SOCIETIES OF APOSTOLIC LIFE

 

STARTING AFRESH FROM CHRIST:
A RENEWED COMMITMENT TO CONSECRATED LIFE
IN THE THIRD MILLENNIUM

 

Part One

CONSECRATED LIFE:
THE PRESENCE OF THE LOVE OF CHRIST
IN THE MIDST OF HUMANITY

 

...

 

5. Considering the presence and many commitments of consecrated men and women in all areas of ecclesial and social life, the members of the Plenary Session wanted to express to them their sincere appreciation, recognition, and solidarity.

 

…

 

Consecrated persons—monks and nuns, contemplatives, religious dedicated to the works of the apostolate, members of Secular Institutes and Societies of Apostolic life, hermits and consecrated virgins—truly deserve the gratitude of the ecclesial community. Their existence witnesses to their love for Christ as they walk the path proposed in the Gospel and with deep joy commit themselves to the same style of life which he chose for himself.¹⁹

 

^…

A Walk in Time

 

6. It is precisely in the simple day-to-day living that consecrated life progressively matures to become the proclamation of an alternative way of living to that of the world and the dominant culture. Given this style of life and the search for the Absolute, it suggests, as it were, a spiritual therapy for the evils of our time. Thus, it is a blessing and a reason for hope, in the heart of the Church, for human life and the very life of the Church.²¹

 

…

 

 For the Holiness of the Whole People of God

 

8. The call to follow Christ with a special consecration is a gift of the Trinity for Gods Chosen People. Recognizing in Baptism the common sacramental origin, consecrated men and women share a common vocation to holiness and to the apostolate with other members of the faithful. By being signs of this universal vocation they manifest the specific mission of consecrated life.²⁵

 

Consecrated women and men have received a call to a “new and special consecration”,²⁶ for the good of the Church, which impels them to live a life in imitation of Christ, the Virgin, and the Apostles with impassioned love.²⁷ In our world this lifestyle stresses the urgency of a prophetic witness which entails “the affirmation of the primacy of God and of eternal life, as evidenced in the following and imitation of the chaste, poor and obedient Christ, who was completely consecrated to the glory of God and to the love of his brethren”.²⁸

Consecrated persons extend a persuasive invitation to reflect upon the primacy of grace and to respond to it through a generous spiritual commitment.²⁹ Despite widespread secularization, there is a widespread demand for spirituality which is often expressed as a renewed need for prayer.³⁰ Life's events, even in their ordinariness, present themselves as challenges which should be seen in light of conversion. The dedication of consecrated persons to the service of an evangelical quality of life contributes to the keeping alive in many ways the spiritual practices among the Christian people. Religious communities increasingly seek to be places for hearing and sharing the Word, for liturgical celebration, for the teaching of prayer, and for accompaniment through spiritual direction. Thus, even without realizing it, this help given to others offers mutual advantages.³¹

 

…

 Open to the Spirit

 

10. This is a time when the Spirit is breaking forth, opening up new possibilities. The charismatic dimension of the diverse forms of consecrated life, while always in progress, is never finished. Cooperating with the Spirit, consecrated persons prepare in the Church for the coming of the One who must come, the One who is already the future of humanity in progress. Like Mary, the first consecrated woman, who in virtue of the Holy Spirit and her total self-giving brought Christ into the world to redeem it through a loving self-sacrifice, consecrated persons, remaining open to the Spirit are today called to stake everything on charity, “living the commandment of a practical and concrete love for every human being”.⁴⁰ There is a particular bond of life and dynamism between the Holy Spirit and consecrated life. For this reason, consecrated persons must remain open to the Creator Spirit who works in accord with the Father's will, praising the grace which has been given to them in the beloved Son. This same Spirit radiates the splendour of the mystery on all of existence, spent for the Kingdom of God and the needy and abandoned multitude. The future of consecrated life is therefore entrusted to the dynamism of the author and donor of ecclesial charisms which are placed at the service of the full knowledge and realization of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

 â€¦

 

Rediscovering the Meaning and Quality of Consecrated Life

 

The evangelical counsels of chastity, poverty and obedience, lived by Christ in the fullness of his human nature as the Son of God and embraced for the love of God, appear as a way for the full realization of persons opposed to dehumanization. They are a powerful antidote to the pollution of spirit, life and culture; they proclaim the liberty of the children of God and the joy of living according to the evangelical beatitudes.

 

…

 

If in some places consecrated persons become little flocks because of a decrease in numbers, this can be seen as a providential sign which invites them to recover their very essential tasks of being leaven, sign and prophecy. The greater the mass of dough to be raised, the greater the quality evangelical leaven called for, and the more exquisite the witness of life and charismatic service of consecrated persons.

 

The growing awareness of the universality of the call to holiness on the part of all Christians,⁴³ far from making the belonging to a state of life particularly adapted to the realization of evangelical perfection superfluous can become an added motive for joy for consecrated persons. They are now closer to the other members of the People of God with whom they share a common path in the following of Christ, in a more authentic communion, in mutual respect, without being superior or inferior. At the same time this awareness challenges them to understand the sign value of consecrated life in relation to the holiness of all the members of the Church.

 

If in fact it is true that all Christians are called “to the holiness and perfection of their particular state”⁴⁴ consecrated persons, thanks to a “new and special consecration”⁴⁵ have as their mission that of making Christ's way of life shine through the witness of the evangelical counsels, thereby supporting the faithfulness of the whole body of Christ. This is not a difficulty, it is rather a challenge to originality and to the specific contribution of the charisms of consecrated life, which are at the same time charisms of shared spirituality and of mission which fosters the holiness of the Church.

 

Clearly these challenges can constitute a powerful call to deepen the living of consecrated life itself whose witness is needed today more than ever. It is fitting to remember the ability of holy foundresses and founders to respond to the challenges and difficulties of their times with a genuine charismatic creativity.

  …

 

Prayer and Contemplation

…

 

Every vocation to consecrated life is born in contemplation, from moments of intense communion and from a deep relationship of friendship with Christ, from the beauty and light which was seen shining on his face. From there the desire to always be with the Lord—and to follow him—matures:“how good it is for us to be here” (Mt 17:4). Every vocation must constantly mature in this intimacy with Christ. “Your first task therefore”—John Paul reminds consecrated persons— “cannot not be in the line of contemplation. Every reality of consecrated life is born and is regenerated each day in the unending contemplation of the face of Christ”.⁷⁷

 

Monks and cloistered nuns like hermits dedicate more time to praise of God as well as to prolonged silent prayer. Members of Secular Institutes, like consecrated virgins in the world, offer to God the joys and sorrows, the hopes and petitions of all people and contemplate the face of Christ which they recognize in the faces of their brothers and sisters, in the historical events, in the apostolate and in everyday work. Religious men and women dedicated to teaching, to the care of the sick, to the poor, encounter the face of the Lord there. For missionaries and members of Societies of Apostolic Life the proclamation of the Gospel is lived according to the example of St. Paul, as authentic cult (cf. Rm1:6). The whole Church enjoys and benefits from the many forms of prayer and the variety of ways in which the one face of Christ is contemplated.

 

 ...

 

In this openness to the world which must be ordered to Christ in such a way that all realities find their true meaning in him, consecrated lay men and women who are members of Secular Institutes hold a privileged position. Sharing the common conditions of life, they effectively work for the Kingdom of God by participating in the political and social reality bringing to them a new value, in view of their following of Christ. Precisely through their consecration lived without external signs, as lay people among lay people, they can be salt and light even in those situations in which a visible sign of consecration would be rejected or serve as an impediment.

 

  …

 

On May 16, 2002 the Holy Father approved this Document of the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.

Rome, 19 May 2002, The Solemnity of Pentecost.

Eduardo Card. Martínez Somalo
Prefect

Piergiorgio Silvano Nesti, CP
Secretary

[Cecilia]

I have received no comments -- no explanations -- from sponsa Christi -- as to how her positions can be correct -- in light of these Church teachings. Is there a misunderstanding? -- Possibly. I do not know. I cannot provide answers to logical questions I have because -- if I knew why she thinks as she does -- I would not have to ask questions. I hope my questions will be treated respectfully -- this is all I ask.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Cecilia

[Cecilia]

sponsa Christi gives the <<impression>> of discounting these Church teachings that do not match her views -- however she also talks about docility and obedience. I have made the point -- that it gives the wrong <<impression>> -- to speak of docility and obedience -- for example, to speak of obedience to one's bishop, regarding matters that the Church does not teach a consecrated virgin <<must>> obey her bishop on -- and yet to discount real teachings of the Church. This gives a bad impression. I have asked for explanations. I have not received them.

 

--The Church teaches the virgin is consecrated by the solemn rite of consecration by the bishop -- sponsa Christi says the virgin is consecrated instead by implicit vows

--The Church teaches members of secular institutes are entirely and fully consecrated -- sponsa Christi says they are not fully consecrated because they remain lay and because they do not make vows

 

I have provided many quotes -- many texts -- to show what the Church teaches.

 

I have observed that it gives a strange <<impression>> -- for sponsa Christi to speak about docility and obedience to a bishop who might want a consecrated virgin to do certain things, when the bishop has no authority to make detailed demands on her life -- however -- at the same time -- sponsa Christi gives the <<impression>> of lacking docility to the Church's teachings in documents that oppose her positions regarding how a consecrated virgin is consecrated -- or whether a secular institute member is fully consecrated.

 

I hope -- I have tried -- to make my observations -- and questions -- clear. I hope this will mean that explanations will be given -- so that we can have a dialogue.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Cecilia

[Sponsa-Christi]

I’ve really done my best to explain my views in this and other threads. If anyone is really interested in what I have to say, it might be best for them to go back to review some of my earlier posts.

 

One point, though, where I may not have been totally clear: I was writing from the understanding that there is a slight difference between the theological concept of “consecration” and the Church’s purely juridical classification of “consecrated life.”

 

Of course, I’m aware that consecrated virgins are, theologically, consecrated by receiving the Rite, and not by professing vows. However, my point in an earlier post was that one reason that consecrated virginity can be juridically classified as consecrated life is because they do in fact make a commitment to live the evangelical counsels in their act of accepting solemn consecration, and also when they state their resolve “to follow Christ in the spirit of the Gospel” during the Rite.

 

While obviously this isn’t the exact same thing as making religious vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience explicitly, many commentators regard a consecrated virgin’s promises and propositum as being nevertheless a true public profession of the evangelical counsels by means of “some other sacred bond.” (cf. can. 573).  One scholarly commentary where this is mentioned is the Navarre “Exegetical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law.”

[Cecilia]

sponsa Christi, The Navarre text is a good item -- thank you. We have all agreed -- indisputably -- that consecrated virgins commit to follow the evangelical counsels -- and that this commitment takes place during her right of consecration -- which is a public Rite.

 

It would aid our understanding -- if you could take the time -- to provide text from Navarre. This aids dialogue -- many questions I have posed remain unanswered. The Catechism and Code of Canon law -- theological and canonical texts -- both of them -- include secular institutes in consecrated life. The catechism theologically explains many things included in canon law. The categories you come up with -- theological versus canonical ways to understand consecration -- do not make sense unless you take time -- to explain them -- and help us see how you reach your conclusions. How do you explain your position that the juridical categories in canon law are not based on theological categories? The two are connected -- this is evident -- the Code of Canon Law -- the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- the many Magisterial documents on consecrated life I provide -- all include members of secular institutes as fully consecrated persons. There is no document that excludes secular institutes -- there is no Church teaching that qualifies their consecration.

 

There is no Church teaching that provides the categories you give -- that says as you say -- that consecration means one thing in canon law, another thing in theology. This is why questions I ask remain unanswered -- I asked for you to explain your position -- using Church teaching -- and you provided instead two categories of your own making -- that consecration theologically means something different from consecration juridically. But these categories do not exist in Church teaching.

Consecrated virgins are mystically espoused to Christ when the diocesan bishop consecrates them according to the approved liturgical Rite. This is what Canon 604 states. This is the juridical category -- the canonical text -- the Church's teaching -- regarding why they belong to consecrated life. It is not because they take <<implicit>> vows as you keep insisting. How do you explain this canon? It does not match your position that juridically consecrated virgins belong to consecrated life because they make <<implicit>> vows. You want to say they are considered consecrated, juridically, not because the bishop consecrates them by a liturgical prayer, but because they make unseen, unheard  <<vows>>  that are somehow public because the consecrated virgin makes them – unseen, unheard, unwitnessed -- during a public liturgical Rite. Canon 604 is clear -- it matches the Catechism. Both state the consecrated virgin becomes consecrated -- and belongs to consecrated life -- because the bishop consecrates her.

The Navarre item is a good resource -- could you provide quotations? It adds to our dialogue and understanding -- but it does not match your category above that you have created.  Sacred bonds come about – in various ways – through the public profession of evangelical vows that religious make – through the consecration of a virgin by a bishop in the liturgical Rite – through the private commitments to the evangelical counsels made by members of secular institutes. All are sacred bonds – juridically and theologically – all are sacred bonds. The Catechism, the Code of Canon Law, the Magisterial documents I have provided – all agree on this. All agree that members of secular institutes enter into sacred bonds – via private promises/private commitments to the evangelical counsels – that make them fully consecrated. But you insist they are not fully consecrated. You want to say because the commitments are not publicly made – that therefore members of secular institutes are not entirely consecrated. But you disregard Church juridical and theological teaching on sacred bonds – in the texts I give – that all forms of consecrated life have sacred bonds – and all forms of consecrated life enter into these sacred bonds in different ways. It is not correct – as you say – that juridically only religious and consecrated virgins are consecrated.

The Code of Canon Law – consecrated virgins have juridical status as consecrated persons – due to their being consecrated by the bishop – not via <<implicit>> vows--

 

Can. 604 §1 The order of virgins is also to be added to these forms of consecrated life. Through their pledge to follow Christ more closely, virgins are consecrated to God, mystically espoused to Christ and dedicated to the service of the Church, when the diocesan Bishop consecrates them according to the approved liturgical rite.

 

The Code of Canon Law – regarding members of secular institutes entering into sacred bonds – even though they do not publicly profess vows like religious do – they have juridical status as consecrated persons due to private commitments/sacred bonds involving the evangelical counsels -- Can. 712 Without prejudice to the provisions of can. 598 - 601, the constitutions are to establish the sacred bonds by which the evangelical counsels are undertaken in the institute. They are to define the obligations which these bonds entail, while always preserving in the manner of life the secular character proper to the institute.

 

Can. 720 The right of admitting a person to the institute, or to probation, or to the taking of sacred bonds, both temporary and perpetual or definitive, belongs to the major Moderators with their council, in accordance with the constitutions.

 

Can. 722 §3 The constitutions are to define the manner and time of the probation to be made before the first sacred bonds are undertaken in the institute; this time is to be not less than two years.

 

Can. 723 §1 When the time of the initial probation has been completed, a candidate who is judged suitable is either to undertake the three evangelical counsels, sealed with a sacred bond, or to leave the institute.

 

Can. 725 The institute can associate with itself, by some form of bond determined in the constitutions, other members of Christ's faithful who seek evangelical perfection according to the spirit of the institute and who share in its mission.

 

Can. 726 §1 When the time of temporary incorporation is completed, the member can freely leave the institute, or can for a just cause be excluded from renewing the sacred bonds by the major Moderator, after consultation with his or her council.

[God's Beloved]

Cecilia, I fail to understand why you have raised the same questions again although the proof of varying positions of the Church magisterium  on the theology of CV for today's world was proved on this forum . I myself had stated how the Experts who revised the Rite and the Canon law were not familiar with the theology of the ancient vocation. Their state of mind has been documented in history of renewal of liturgy after Vat II and the discussions of experts who formulated canon 604.

 

It is very clear that theologians have mixed up the theology of religious life and of CV. Be patient .....next year there are going to be new documents by the Magisterium to clarify the nature of some vocations in consecrated life. The church is always reforming itself.

 

I also wish to state with respect and firmness that your comment about me not following the Church teaching .....is highly irresponsible of you  irrespective of  you feeling overworked. Be careful. This is a very very serious allegation. Many readers have interpreted this in your words.

 

To state my point once again , I have read articles on CV written in journals published by  Rome which  state that the authors were writing according to the mind of the church , and you'll be shocked to know that there have been official published information by the Congr. for Cons. Life in Rome, the Congr for Divine worship and discipline of the sacraments , CDF etc. which  reveal a wide range of theological reflection , including positions taken by Sponsa Christ,  ABC and myself.

 

This shows that the Church has kept the discussion open and it  includes positions taken by Sponsa Christi, ABC and myself. Please stop treating a theologian who thinks differently from you in a condescending manner on a public forum. We are doing a great disservice to  our vocation as Christians and as CV by the public show of conflicts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cecilia]

God's beloved, Thank you. Did you read all of my comments -- I understand -- there are many. One pages or two pages ago -- I put the quotation from you -- I put the quotation from oremus1 -- this so you could what I was asking you about. I said I did not understand why you made the comment you made about Church documents -- I did not say you don't follow them. Do you understand? We cannot dialogue if we do not ask each other questions. I do not understand why you feel offended. I asked you to clarify. This is not an accusation -- however when I began to put the topic here -- I wanted a topic that would try hard to dialogue. I am uncertain why you think I would be shocked to know -- different positions -- this is what we are here for, yes? To put this all forward. To gather ideas and positions together. To ask questions -- give answers -- dialogue. My consecrated virgin friends are in real life -- this is my first time with consecrated virgin <<friends>> on the internet. There seem to be many hurt feelings -- many attitudes of unhappiness -- why? I do not understand this.

 

If I do not agree with your position -- that the Vatican did not undestand this vocation -- was confused -- did not know the history -- if I do not agree with your conclusion -- why do you attack me for that? I gave you one quotation from you -- I asked you to explain it -- you blew up. Why? This is strange. But I have been away -- and fights have broken out. I did not say I was overworked -- I said I was away -- and now while I was gone -- fighting here. I was here -- everyone dialoguing -- I come back -- everyone fighting -- everyone accusing. It is too bad. It makes the consecrated vocation discussions look bad. But the consecrated virgins I know in my country are not like this -- they can disagree -- without making accusations -- and being upset.

 

Will you have better feelings if I tell you clearly -- I do not question your loyalty to Mother Church. I asked questions about your position -- that is a different matter.

[BarbTherese]

Signs or Fruits of the Presence of The Holy Spirit:

http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/f/FAQ_Fruits_HS.htm

 

The twelve Fruits of the Holy Spirit are works that we can perform only with the aid of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the performance of such works is an indication that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Christian believer.

 

 The twelve Fruits of the Holy Spirit are charity (or love), joy, peace, patience, benignity (or kindness), goodness, longanimity (or long suffering), mildness, faith, modesty, continency, and chastity.

[God's Beloved]

God's beloved, Thank you. Did you read all of my comments -- I understand -- there are many. One pages or two pages ago -- I put the quotation from you -- I put the quotation from oremus1 -- this so you could what I was asking you about. I said I did not understand why you made the comment you made about Church documents -- I did not say you don't follow them. Do you understand? We cannot dialogue if we do not ask each other questions. I do not understand why you feel offended. I asked you to clarify. This is not an accusation -- however when I began to put the topic here -- I wanted a topic that would try hard to dialogue. I am uncertain why you think I would be shocked to know -- different positions -- this is what we are here for, yes? To put this all forward. To gather ideas and positions together. To ask questions -- give answers -- dialogue. My consecrated virgin friends are in real life -- this is my first time with consecrated virgin <<friends>> on the internet. There seem to be many hurt feelings -- many attitudes of unhappiness -- why? I do not understand this.

 

If I do not agree with your position -- that the Vatican did not undestand this vocation -- was confused -- did not know the history -- if I do not agree with your conclusion -- why do you attack me for that? I gave you one quotation from you -- I asked you to explain it -- you blew up. Why? This is strange. But I have been away -- and fights have broken out. I did not say I was overworked -- I said I was away -- and now while I was gone -- fighting here. I was here -- everyone dialoguing -- I come back -- everyone fighting -- everyone accusing. It is too bad. It makes the consecrated vocation discussions look bad. But the consecrated virgins I know in my country are not like this -- they can disagree -- without making accusations -- and being upset.

 

Will you have better feelings if I tell you clearly -- I do not question your loyalty to Mother Church. I asked questions about your position -- that is a different matter.

 

Cecilia, the fact that I've not been posting on the thread recently, is because I AM REALLY VERY BUSY AT THE MOMENT . Your comments seemed to come out of the blue , when I was absent from the conversation. I was forced to respond.

 

In a conference of theologians, where other participants are only spectators ,there are certain commonalities due to which dialogue /debate is possible. Also if for some reason one theologian is absent for some time, she does not come in suddenly and start sharing interpretations and asking questions on what the rest of the group already discussed in her absence , because she would not be aware of the group dynamics in the past , and this intervention would break the current group thought process .

 

I have been saying that I believe in commonality on the Essence of the vocation  , leaving the accidental elements to local bishops and CVs to decide.  I  believe that it is better for me to find the truth about the Essence through research on early church positions , discerning what elements of the Essence were / are static or dynamic . You discuss your positions based on Post -Vat II documents. There is incommensurability in our methodology --we cannot debate unless we find some common measure to base our dialogue / debate.

 

Shall get back to this after few days. I'm coming to the thread only to lighten my mood inbetween  my other commitments these days.Can you hold back your comments on this topic for few days , PLEASE !?

[God's Beloved]

Hello to all friends once again ! :cheers:

 

I've read that there is going to be a meeting of CVs in Rome for the Year of Cons. life . :pope2: Any information ?

 

How I would love to be present. I've never attended any such gathering of CV anywhere in the past. Wish we could all meet in person and have some solid discussions and communion. :wedgie: :dance5:

 

But what about those of us who cannot afford such a trip ? :console:  any thoughts ? :think:

[Cecilia]

God's beloved, Thank you -- I do not know if I will hold my comments -- but when you can post -- this is good for me. Probably we are all busy -- and comment here as we can. If we have different methodologies -- this is not a problem -- it is a way to dialogue -- in different ways. I think we should be patient -- with each other -- and not assume questions are meant to be accusations. This is the debate silo -- Aloysius told us this means we share ideas -- we do not need to agree. We can disagree -- we can press ideas -- we can contradict. To contradict -- to disagree -- that is not the same as accusing. I think you agree -- yes? You do not address all of my comments -- you comment on some -- you disregard others. This is fine. You have your own ideas -- interests here -- I do the same. I comment here -- with things I think signify -- this does not mean I am ignoring discussion. It does not mean you are ignoring discussion. If you develop some dialogues -- I develop others -- that is fine. We should give each other space, yes? That is how I will proceed.

[abrideofChrist]

Cecilia, I agree with you 100% in almost all your posts.  I would go about giving props except you wrote a lot of good posts!  You have posted what the Church teaches.  Sponsa Christi has not come up with a sufficient explanation to explain her contradictory positions.  She can't.  Her positions are contradictory because they are based on a flawed premise.  It is because she doesn't know what the nature of consecration is that she cannot accept secular institutes as having a true consecration.  It is because she doesn't know the nature of consecration that she cannot have CVs be CVs without "implicit" vows.  The Church documents don't need to say that a priest can't be deputized to do the consecration.  If it's not in the document that specifies that it is the BISHOP or the BISHOP's BISHOP-DELEGATE then where else is one supposed to go to find the power to delegate to a priest?  O.  Maybe one needs to go to the commission that formulated the Rite to begin with.  Viola!  The CDF deleted the texts in the Rite that permitted priests to be delegated to do the Rite because it went against the "time immemorial" customs (think: law) of the Church.  That's right.  Before the Rite was promulgated, it went to different curial offices.  The CDF would not permit it to be promulgated before certain changes were made.  This is not something pre-Vatican II.  This is post-Vatican II.  That self same commission that formulated the Rite specified that the theology and origin of religious life and consecrated virginity are different.  Something to ponder.  Again, Sponsa Christi is well out of her league here because it tears apart her theory that the theology of consecrated virginity is watered down religious life and that the implicit vows are consecrated and it is not the woman being consecrated.  What she needs to do is go up to her professors and ask them what consecration is and whether it consecrates a bond or whether it consecrates a person.

[BarbTherese]

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/133280-signing-off/

 

 

[oremus1]

Cecilia, I agree with you 100% in almost all your posts.  I would go about giving props except you wrote a lot of good posts!  You have posted what the Church teaches.  Sponsa Christi has not come up with a sufficient explanation to explain her contradictory positions.  She can't.  Her positions are contradictory because they are based on a flawed premise.  It is because she doesn't know what the nature of consecration is that she cannot accept secular institutes as having a true consecration.  It is because she doesn't know the nature of consecration that she cannot have CVs be CVs without "implicit" vows.  The Church documents don't need to say that a priest can't be deputized to do the consecration.  If it's not in the document that specifies that it is the BISHOP or the BISHOP's BISHOP-DELEGATE then where else is one supposed to go to find the power to delegate to a priest?  O.  Maybe one needs to go to the commission that formulated the Rite to begin with.  Viola!  The CDF deleted the texts in the Rite that permitted priests to be delegated to do the Rite because it went against the "time immemorial" customs (think: law) of the Church.  That's right.  Before the Rite was promulgated, it went to different curial offices.  The CDF would not permit it to be promulgated before certain changes were made.  This is not something pre-Vatican II.  This is post-Vatican II.  That self same commission that formulated the Rite specified that the theology and origin of religious life and consecrated virginity are different.  Something to ponder.  Again, Sponsa Christi is well out of her league here because it tears apart her theory that the theology of consecrated virginity is watered down religious life and that the implicit vows are consecrated and it is not the woman being consecrated.  What she needs to do is go up to her professors and ask them what consecration is and whether it consecrates a bond or whether it consecrates a person.

I agree. In particular, in (i think from memory) the 1971 Notitiae specifically states that a CV can be a member of a secular institute. if the two vocations were wholly incompatibel this would not be possible.

 

However Cecilia I, like Gods Belowed and Sponsa, am very offended that you have taken our comments out of context, questioned our obedience to the Church, in order rile people up into answering your SAME questions that you always ask. this is why people are offended. in particular, if one wants to live like a nun, thats up to them, if they want to live it like a secular insitute, thats their choice. they are serving God in the best way for them, and thats good. but i think it is wrong to try to enforce one persons view on everyone.

 

like you cecilia, I have had many questions on this thread which are not answered, but i am not offending people to pressure them into answering them.

 

my questions relate to:

1) I have previously quoted the response from Congregation for Consecrated life which says that dispensation is not prohibited and is within the remit of the bishop's decision. how can this be, if it is a nuptial vocation like matrimony? unless they do not think it is

2) Abride has indicated that for one to be accepted as a CV, she should meet the objective criteria AND a far more rigorous, subjective criteria from St Thomas Aquinas ,  which effectively means anyone who has French kissed, masterbated, hugged someone passionately, etc has experieneced 'veneral lust' and therefore is not a virgin and should disqualify herself. elsewhere i have even seen suggestions that this should be acieved by making a manifestation of conscience to the bishop. Does anyone else actually agree with this approach?

 

Edited March 3, 2014 by oremus1

[Cecilia]

abrideofChrist, Thank you. It is not easy – to find the time – to be thorough and put forward the necessary texts and questions.

 

Barbaratherese, Thank you. Probably we will all pray for each other—and sponsa Christi – during the Lent season.

 

Oremus1, Please stop attacking me for disagreeing with you. This is getting tiresome – and it is immature. This is the debate silo – it does not matter how many people are upset – if the tempers are flaring and it is not a mature response – it does not matter if 200 people are upset – the response is mature, or it is not. Numbers do not signify – if the reaction is misplaced.

 

Sponsa Christi does not match Church teaching – on whether members of secular institutes are fully consecrated – on whether the consecrated virgin in the world takes implicit vows. You might not understand – but denying members of secular institutes full consecrated status – this signifies greatly. It is no small matter. It is not a small disagreement. If she does not answer questions – respond to texts that come from the Church – this is her choice. When I give texts –  to show she is ignoring items from the Church – there is nothing more to say – she has said <<I am not ignoring them>> -- I have said <<You are.>> This is not complex. It does not need to be a means to attack each other in a topic that is meant to be <<debate>> -- possibly I should put that in capital letters <<DEBATE>> -- on an important issue.

 

You have stated your comment – that I quoted – and the context around your comment – why you made it. I responded to you – thanked you. If that is not enough – if you are still determined – to say I am accusing you – I can only say <<I am not.>> You respond << You are.>> -- So? – That is where it is left. God’s beloved has commented – she and I have different methodologies – this signifies. We see that about each other. – So? – I do not agree with her methodology – She does not agree with mine. This is a <<DEBATE.>> The attacks on each other here aid nothing. When someone says – your idea is wrong – this is why – this is why what you say is wrong -- to say – you are mean to me – you are questioning my loyalty to Holy Church – when the arena is a debate arena – this is immature. Once – probably fine. Possibly tempers flare. Again – and again – that is immature. Sometimes – in many, many pages – we will miss things. Probably we will miss context – here – and there. You can patiently explain your idea again – try to be kind to the person asking – or you can attack. I asked sponsa Christi – again, and again, and again – I did not press until she equivocated many times. You – I ask you one thing – you blow up. That is too bad. You were not patient – with me – for one second.

 

It is too bad – and embarassing – that consecrated virgins cannot debate – without blowing up – without getting hurt feelings.

[God's Beloved]

Oremus,

 

The Congr. for Cons. Life did not say that dispensation from obligations was possible. They only said they had received such a question.[they did not even state whether the question was about dispensation from obligation to serve the church , or from the obligation to remain celibate and a virgin.]. They said there was no formal definition. And their response was more than a decade ago.

The Rite itself is clearer in the latin version, implying an indissoluble spousal bond due to the consecration.

 

Probably the church would think that a CV who later feels called to sacramental marriage could receive a dispensation to be allowed to be married in church , inspite of a spousal bond with Christ, which would remain indissoluble.

Edited March 3, 2014 by God's Beloved

[God's Beloved]

Does anyone have the link to the recent document released in Italian  for reflection by consecrated persons ? I am unable to find the link . I saw it on the vatican website for few moments the other day and then it disappeared ! It is called 'Rejoice'

[oremus1]

Oremus,

 

The Congr. for Cons. Life did not say that dispensation from obligations was possible. They only said they had received such a question.[they did not even state whether the question was about dispensation from obligation to serve the church , or from the obligation to remain celibate and a virgin.]. They said there was no formal definition. And their response was more than a decade ago.

The Rite itself is clearer in the latin version, implying an indissoluble spousal bond due to the consecration.

 

Probably the church would think that a CV who later feels called to sacramental marriage could receive a dispensation to be allowed to be married in church , inspite of a spousal bond with Christ, which would remain indissoluble.

 

Seems clear to me that it is this they arereferrring to:

 

 

Canon 604#1 says that we are consecrated by the Bishop. How exactly is this different from the Prayer of consecration in the Rite for the Profession of Religious Women ? In several theological articles it is said that in the Cons. of virgins what is specific is the charismatic element in the Rite whereas in the Rite of Religious Profession what is specific is the ascetic element or the Profession of vows according to the Constitution of the Institute .............Since the Consecration takes place by the very words in the Prayer of Consecration, the Information provided by the United States Association of Consecrated Virgins says that it is Irrevocable. They say there can be no dispensation from the commitment ...........in case later in life the virgin feels a call to marriage. How far is this true ?

 

Their response : Prot.n. SpR 862-4/2003 was :

 

........ it is to be hoped that as the Rite is better known,and is studied both by the candidate and by the consecrating bishop, it will be clear that the candidate's proposito expresses her intent and the solemn prayer of the Bishop consecrates her. This is distinct from the rite of religious profession in which the profession of the evangelical counsels- all other canonical requirements being in place--consecrates the candidate to God[c.654]

 

It would be true to say that the Consecration effected through the Rite is permanent. For this reason some Bishops require periods of time with a private vow of chastity during the formation time, before accepting a candidate for the Consecration.We have , however, received the question of a possible dispensation from the proposito and from the obligations arising from the Consecration. This while regrettable, would seem would be within the competency of the Diocesan Bishop. There has not been any formal definition in this regard