Did Mary Get Old?

[Eliakim]

1) If original sin makes people get old (Jesus was the spotless Lamb at 33 or 32 so anything after this is getting old I suppose), then did Mary get old since she didn't have original sin?  Also accounts of near death experiences reveal the vast majority do not see old people in heaven, so again someone without original sin would not grow old. 

 

2) And how can the R C C allow an opinion that she died since dying of old age is also from the curse of Adam due to original sin. 

 

3) Perhaps a subpart and related to the question is if baptism does away with all the effects of original sin, why do even baptized people still get old then - is it because they commit actual sins later which invalidates the baptismal elimination of original sin's effects? 

 

E

[Luigi]

Of course Mary got old. She was fully human.

 

In the Middle Ages, there was debate as to whether she died-and-then-was-assumed-into-heaven, or whether she was assumed into heaven without dying. St. Thomas Aquinas was of the opinion that she died first, and I have to respect his opinion.

 

I don't trust reports of near-death experiences. There are no physical bodies in heaven except Jesus and Mary. Even if there were physical bodies in heaven, they would be in some sort of "perfect" state.

 

I have no opinion about the effects of original sin being the cause of death, except to say that animals never committed original sin, and they die, too.

[Lilllabettt]

It's not a teaching of the Catholic Church that Mary died.

 

The east holds that she did not die, only fell asleep. The west speculates that she died in imitation of Christ. Pope Pius XII carefully sidestepped the question when he defined the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. 

Edited February 14, 2014 by Lilllabettt

[blazeingstar]

You're mixing 2 planes here.  Mary was, at most, in her 50's so she really wasn't that "old".  There may have been certain consequences physically that she didn't face becuase of her not being born with original sin.  However, just as Jesus took on the consequences of Original sin, so did Mary.

[Basilisa Marie]

Mary may have experienced some of the physical, natural manifestations of original sin like getting sick or growing old, or maybe she didn't. We don't know. Some people think that original sin affected not just humans but the whole natural world and everything in it. Some of this draws from where God curses the land and makes it difficult for Adam to cultivate. So there may have been effects of original sin in the world that Mary came into contact with, like sickness. All of this here is speculative theology. What we DO know is that the effect of original sin that she didn't experience was the particular draw toward sin (concupiscence) that the rest of us face. This is important because it means she was completely free from any sinful attachments so she could fully agree to bear the Son of God.  That's the important part of original sin as it applies to her.  The rest is a bit of speculation. 

 

Like Lilllabettt said, we don't actually believe that she died.  We believe she was taken up to Heaven, body and soul. We sometimes talk about the "dormition" of Mary, which might be a bit like falling asleep.  It's not necessarily death. 

Edited February 14, 2014 by Basilisa Marie

[CatherineM]

If I had Jesus's power, my mom wouldn't have had to experience death. I'd have snatched her out before.

[Mary+Immaculate<3]

In the Byzantine Catholic church I heard a priest say that Mary had a "Dormition" a sort of falling asleep.

[Eliakim]

but the effects of original sin bring decay, sickness and death. 

 

If Mary was preserved from that, then how did she get old?  Also she must not have felt pain in giving birth since that was another result of the curse and effects of original sin. 

 

 

[SilentJoy]

 

 

I don't trust reports of near-death experiences. There are no physical bodies in heaven except Jesus and Mary. Even if there were physical bodies in heaven, they would be in some sort of "perfect" state.

 

And Enoch and Elijah?

[PhuturePriest]

This is much like the question "Did Mary experience pain during childbirth?" Some theologians say yes, others say no. It is all speculation, however, and questions such as these aren't particularly important in the long-run, so for top theologians, finding concluding answers isn't really a priority. At the moment, I get the sense the new top priority is expounding upon the theology of woman, which is obviously a much more important topic.

[SilentJoy]

If I had Jesus's power, my mom wouldn't have had to experience death. I'd have snatched her out before.

I wouldn't have put her through watching her child tortured to death, either.  :cry:

[KnightofChrist]

I wouldn't have put her through watching her child tortured to death, either.  :cry:

 

This may sound morbid but if I were put in His shoes, I would, especially in the moments of the passion. Just having her there must have given Him strength to endure. I am sure He could have suffered and saved us from our sins without His mother there with Him. But in my experience in the pains of suffering and trials the first person I want with me is my mama, even though I know seeing me in pain must cause her great sorrow.

[Selah]

In the Byzantine Catholic church I heard a priest say that Mary had a "Dormition" a sort of falling asleep.

 

Yes, she falls asleep, and then is bodily assumed to heaven.

 

[maximillion]

Does it matter?

[Eliakim]

It does matter if one believes Mary was born without original sin. 

 

If so perhaps the only answer is that she still lived in a world under the curse and time like laws of gravity wear on even those without original sin. 

[Oremoose]

Wait being affected by time and Gravity is part of the curse of original sin? I am Confused.

[KnightofChrist]

This is much like the question "Did Mary experience pain during childbirth?" Some theologians say yes, others say no. It is all speculation, however, and questions such as these aren't particularly important in the long-run, so for top theologians, finding concluding answers isn't really a priority. At the moment, I get the sense the new top priority is expounding upon the theology of woman, which is obviously a much more important topic.

Most of the Church Fathers or rather the common teaching amongst the Church Fathers has been that Mary was free from the pains of birth, because Mary was born free from original sin, and one of the effects of it is birth pains. She could not have suffered the effect of something she was free from in the first place. Most of the theologians that I know who believe Mary suffer birth pains don't believe she was free from original sin. True it's not dogma per se but since it was the common teaching of the Church Fathers it does carry a lot of weight and force.

Plus there is also the too often forgotten Christmas prophecy of Isaiah.

"Before she is in labor, she gives birth; Before her pangs come upon her, she delivers a male child." -Isaiah 66:7

[maximillion]

Faith is called that for a reason.

 

 

Some things are not fathomable in this life.

 

You'll break your head if you try to fathom every aspect of the Faith according to human knowledge. That is why we have the Holy Spirit, the Comforter and the Wise.

 

If this is important to you for winning some non believer over or because lots of non Catholics bring up this kind of stuff, then you have to be prepared to leave some things to the working of the Holy Spirit.

 

"And all these things shall be added unto you....but you have to seek first His Kingdom, and if there are folk who insist that you 'know' everything and have every last answer, then they are missing out on the beauty and trust of true faith.

[HisChildForever]

On the topic of "dormition"...

 

Silly question, maybe, but - was she then unaware of what was happening, or did she "wake up" when she was assumed?

[Selah]

On the topic of "dormition"...

 

Silly question, maybe, but - was she then unaware of what was happening, or did she "wake up" when she was assumed?

 

 

 

 

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Dormition

 

 

According to Orthodox Tradition, Mary died like all humanity, "falling asleep," so to speak, as the name of the feast indicates. She died as all people die, not "voluntarily" as her Son, but by the necessity of her mortal human nature which is indivisibly bound up with the corruption of this world. The feast was added to the Roman calendar in the seventh century as the Dormitio. In the eighth century, the title was changed to the Assumptio (Assumption).

The Apostles were miraculously summoned to this event, and all were present except Thomas when Mary passed from this life. She was then buried.

Thomas arrived a few days later, and desiring to see her one more time, convinced the others to open her tomb. Upon doing so, the Apostles discovered that her body was no longer present. This event is seen as a firstfruits of the resurrection of the faithful that will occur at the Second Coming of Christ. The event is normally called the Dormition, though there are many Orthodox parishes in English-speaking countries with the name Assumption. In Greek, Dormition is Koimisis—falling asleep in death—from which the word cemetery derives.