NotreDame Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 My two cents: many women's religious orders do idiotic stuff that would never be tolerated in a million years by men, and if men did it to women it would be viewed as grossly sexist. I don't understand it. I'll take slack for this, but IMO this ^^^ is as true in secular and professional life as it is in religious life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrysostom Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 The "female physical sign of virginity" is ridiculous and stupid. It's not even a legitimate "sign" of virginity. Something that is commonly destroyed at young ages by riding a bike, exercising, and even medical examinations, has nothing to do with virginity. Just thought I would rant about that. :P I've seen too many people put so much importance on the hymen, when it's really not that important whatsoever. I'm not saying you put importance on it, to be clear. I mentioned it because even though everyday concern with it is not warranted as you say, I did not want to categorically discount its value as a sign, mainly because of immemorial Church teaching that the Theotokos preserved this sign even in the act of birth (making it a miraculous birth, of course). Besides this, yes it's stupid to worry about. French kissing and making out do not automatically lead to sexual intercourse. They can and can cause temptation. Limits, convictions, and great moderation along with when and where help prevent that. Hugging can lead to more physical contact and things less than kissing can cause someone to be aroused-ask any teenager if they have ever been aroused. Being alone with someone can lead to activity that can lead to sex, yet I don't think it is a sin for a 30-something year old couple to be alone at some point before their wedding day. Since I am disinclined to say that we should only date people we are not attracted to lest we experience arousal or have the thought of sex ever cross our minds, I think it is most important to respect that we have limits of what we can handle so as to not fall into temptation and respect that the marital act belongs in the context of a marriage. Judging based on the existence of arousal, or the exact seconds of a kiss before it becomes sinful or whether contact is limited to just the lips or if tongues touch at all and how much seems a little arbitrary after a while. Does the fact that something can cause arousal automatically make it sinful? - No, they don't automatically lead to the marital act. Nothing automatically leads to the marital act, for that matter. - Of course we shouldn't date only people we are not attracted to. Ideally, we will date people we are attracted to. I agree that we ought to respect boundaries, but I think the question between us is whether making out already constitutes a crossing of that boundary. - Indeed, the fact that something causes arousal does not automatically make it sinful. Making out is a prolonged mutual physical enjoyment of each other's bodies. It is a use of the other's body for pleasure. But St. Paul says married people have a right to each other's body and a fortiori only married people have that right. I do think it is a serious thing when people disagree on what constitutes grave matter, but please be aware that I'm not intending to pass judgement on anyone and I don't want to give off that impression. I want to keep my words limited to general principles and hypothetical applications. your definition of making out being foreplay makes no sense. cause even in the confines of a marriage, a couple could not make out unless it lead to the marital act. to do otherwise would be tsrating something sexual but not finishing which if we stay on the legalistic mindset your going with, means the couple committed a mortal sin by engaing in sexual acts but not being open to life. It's not necessary to quote Aquinas to say that making out is foreplay. It's probably sufficient to bring up the common metaphor for making out as being first base. Does that metaphor make no sense too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 - No, they don't automatically lead to the marital act. Nothing automatically leads to the marital act, for that matter. - Of course we shouldn't date only people we are not attracted to. Ideally, we will date people we are attracted to. I agree that we ought to respect boundaries, but I think the question between us is whether making out already constitutes a crossing of that boundary. - Indeed, the fact that something causes arousal does not automatically make it sinful. Making out is a prolonged mutual physical enjoyment of each other's bodies. It is a use of the other's body for pleasure. But St. Paul says married people have a right to each other's body and a fortiori only married people have that right. I do think it is a serious thing when people disagree on what constitutes grave matter, but please be aware that I'm not intending to pass judgement on anyone and I don't want to give off that impression. I want to keep my words limited to general principles and hypothetical app... So cuddling is out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 So cuddling is out? EVERYTHING is out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 EVERYTHING is out. No! You can still look at eachother....as long as your eyes are closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 No! You can still look at eachother....as long as your eyes are closed. no, because then you might imagine them looking good. only solution is to cover each other if manure, close your eyes and don't be on the same side of the street ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustineA Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 no, because then you might imagine them looking good. only solution is to cover each other if manure, close your eyes and don't be on the same side of the street ever. I think I read that in the catechism somewhere.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Tehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oremus1 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Matthew 5:27 - 2927"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.… Edited March 20, 2014 by oremus1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Why are men so obsessed with a woman's virginity? I think men should be virgins. All of them. Even after sex. You better still be a virgin. I was a virgin -- for ALL of my life -- until I had sex! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I was a virgin -- for ALL of my life -- until I had sex! :O NO. HOW DID THIS HAPPEN Wait, no, don't actually tell me please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustineA Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Matthew 5:27 - 2927"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.… It's difficult these days. Women will wear low cut tops, you avert your eyes and they're wearing yoga pantaloons. It's like serious.. give me a break, I'm trying to perfect holiness here. Edited March 20, 2014 by AugustineA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 It's difficult these days. Women will wear low cut tops, you avert your eyes and they're wearing yoga pantaloons. It's like serious.. give me a break, I'm trying to perfect holiness here. YEAH WOMEN STOP MAKING MEN SIN GOSH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustineA Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 YEAH WOMEN STOP MAKING MEN SIN GOSH Nvm, I found a solution. Orthodox Jewish modesty glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Nvm, I found a solution. Orthodox Jewish modesty glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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