We’re Losing All Our Strong Female Characters To Trinity Syndrome

[CrossCuT]

In the movie, the girl who was dying was only able to be saved by another girl, not a man. Secondly, the man who was supposed to save her turned out to be evil and didn't. There was no knight in shining armor in this movie. Women were the central characters, and did all of the important things in the show.

 

Yawn.

 

I dont think running towards eachother in a fit of passion on a frozen lake but then deciding to save your sisters life is much evidence. Besides, she didnt make a "Im a strong female" choice; she made an "Oh croutons my sister is gonna die" logical choice. I dont think that reflects on anything being discussed here. 

 

But you have successfully pointed out the one and only thing people are able to use as this all determining factor in the Frozen discussion. And the dude  being evil part is meh...there is another dude to take his place. Yeah he is quirky and silly and has a pet deer thing, but he is the same as all the other males. 

 

Nihil can you come up with anything to sway me? I really want to understand why people worship this movie for breaking female stereotypes.

Edited July 8, 2014 by CrossCuT

[PhuturePriest]

Yawn.

 

I dont think running towards eachother in a fit of passion on a frozen lake but then deciding to save your sisters life is much evidence. Besides, she didnt make a "Im a strong female" choice; she made an "Oh croutons my sister is gonna die" logical choice. I dont think that reflects on anything being discussed here. 

 

But you have successfully pointed out the one and only thing people are able to use as this all determining factor in the Frozen discussion. And the dude  being evil part is meh...there is another dude to take his place. Yeah he is quirky and silly and has a pet deer thing, but he is the same as all the other males. 

 

Nihil can you come up with anything to sway me? I really want to understand why people worship this movie for breaking female stereotypes.

 

Well, someone's in a right snit today.

 

She went on a journey by herself to find her sister and bring her back, denying male help when it was offered to her, saying she wanted to do it alone.

 

Also, you generalized men: "But he is the same as all the other males."

Edited July 8, 2014 by FuturePriest387

[CrossCuT]

Those points are too simple for me. The characters are too simple for me. She does not exemplify anything meaningful other than she loves her sister and understands her sister is cray and probably shouldn't have random people around. 

[KnightofChrist]

[Nihil Obstat]

Ive heard many sing the praises of this movie where female empowerment is concerned; have hailed it as this breakthrough film that finally gives us some women who exemplify the strong archetype that men have dominated for forever...but I just dont see it. 

What part of this film makes it original in that sense?

I see a lot of feminine 'empowerment' in Frozen. Two of the most central characters are female. Elsa seriously could not give less of a crap about men, and Anna learns throughout the movie that romantic love, or rather her false impression of romantic love, is not as important as the familiar love she shares with Elsa. I mean, they played the whole 'true love's first kiss' cliche, and then averted it when that love failed, and the real power of true love came through her bond with Elsa. It was only after she recognized her legitimate bond with Elsa that she found her romantic love in Kristoff. Basically, "get your house in order before you go looking for romance".

The movie easily passes the Bechdel test. Not exactly difficult, but rare enough that I think it is significant. The significant conflict of the film was proximately caused by, then proximately solved by women. Men had significant supporting roles and sort of secondary antagonistic roles, but they were clearly not the focus of the movie. (Also Kristoff is, IMO, a very good masculine figure, so I do not think for a second that the feminine credit in Frozen comes at the expense of masculinity.)

Both Anna and Elsa really kick arse in a way that is not sexualized, not 'waif-fu', and not in such a way that they are immediately eclipsed by a male warrior hero. In fact Elsa is easily more powerful than any man in the movie.

[CrossCuT]

Im not familiar with her character. But think about her, and read through the questionnaire I quoted from the article. Does she pass?

[PhuturePriest]

Those points are too simple for me. The characters are too simple for me. She does not exemplify anything meaningful other than she loves her sister and understands her sister is cray and probably shouldn't have random people around. 

 

So it's not that the movie doesn't exemplify strong female characters, they're just not "strong enough" for you. Got it.

[CrossCuT]

I see a lot of feminine 'empowerment' in Frozen. Two of the most central characters are female. Elsa seriously could not give less of a croutons about men, and Anna learns throughout the movie that romantic love, or rather her false impression of romantic love, is not as important as the familiar love she shares with Elsa. I mean, they played the whole 'true love's first kiss' cliche, and then averted it when that love failed, and the real power of true love came through her bond with Elsa. It was only after she recognized her legitimate bond with Elsa that she found her romantic love in Kristoff. Basically, "get your house in order before you go looking for romance".

The movie easily passes the Bechdel test. Not exactly difficult, but rare enough that I think it is significant. The significant conflict of the film was proximately caused by, then proximately solved by women. Men had significant supporting roles and sort of secondary antagonistic roles, but they were clearly not the focus of the movie. (Also Kristoff is, IMO, a very good masculine figure, so I do not think for a second that the feminine credit in Frozen comes at the expense of masculinity.)

Both Anna and Elsa really kick arse in a way that is not sexualized, not 'waif-fu', and not in such a way that they are immediately eclipsed by a male warrior hero. In fact Elsa is easily more powerful than any man in the movie.

 

I dont like the idea that the only way for a woman to be "strong" is that she has to be stripped of her sexuality. I dont think thats fair. Nearly every single male protagonist is able to be kick arse as well as have interest in a female...his awesome is never in question. He doesnt abandon his sexuality. But I also dont expect a cute kids cartoon to get too sexual either...so I feel like you cant really use the fact they arent sexualized as a major point. 

 

I do appreciate your response, it was much more informative. Im not familiar with the Bechdel test either.

[PhuturePriest]

I dont like the idea that the only way for a woman to be "strong" is that she has to be stripped of her sexuality. I dont think thats fair. Nearly every single male protagonist is able to be kick arse as well as have interest in a female...his amesome is never in question. He doesnt abandon his sexuality. But I also dont expect a cute kids cartoon to get too sexual either...so I feel like you cant really use the fact they arent sexualized as a major point. 

 

I do appreciate your response, it was much more informative. Im not familiar with the Bechdel test either.

 

So you complain that women are sexualized and reduced to sexual play things, but when a character isn't portrayed as sexual you complain?

[CrossCuT]

So you complain that women are sexualized and reduced to sexual play things, but when a character isn't portrayed as sexual you complain?

 

You got me.

 

Consider the context please, dont get grumpy. 

Edited July 8, 2014 by CrossCuT

[PhuturePriest]

I dont like the idea that the only way for a woman to be "strong" is that she has to be stripped of her sexuality. I dont think thats fair. Nearly every single male protagonist is able to be kick arse as well as have interest in a female...his amesome is never in question. He doesnt abandon his sexuality. But I also dont expect a cute kids cartoon to get too sexual either...so I feel like you cant really use the fact they arent sexualized as a major point. 

 

I do appreciate your response, it was much more informative. Im not familiar with the Bechdel test either.

 

It is also worth noting that you seem to not like the movie because there is a strong male character in it. Are you saying the only way to properly express femininity is by reducing masculinity, and having anything strongly masculine minimizes femininity? Because that belief in itself is sexist towards women.

[CrossCuT]

FP, go take a chill pill. 

[PhuturePriest]

FP, go take a chill pill. 

 

I'm not angry. I'm showing gigantic issues in your posts that contradict true femininity. There is nothing more complimentary in life than strong femininity and masculinity. Showing a strong male lead does not minimize strong female leads, it enhances them, and vice-versa.

Edited July 8, 2014 by FuturePriest387

[KnightofChrist]

Im not familiar with her character. But think about her, and read through the questionnaire I quoted from the article. Does she pass?

Yes, I believe she would pass. She is Kate Mulgrew, her character was Captain Janeway. She kicked Borg butt, and she gave the orders. Edited July 8, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[arfink]

Yes, I believe she would pass. She is Kate Mulgrew, her character was Captain Janeway. She kicked Borg butt, and she gave the orders.

 

Janeway was awesome. Although I must admit, she was extremely free with the photon torpedoes.

 

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k[/media]

[CrossCuT]

I'm not angry. I'm showing gigantic issues in your posts that contradict true femininity. There is nothing more complimentary in life than strong femininity and masculinity. Showing a strong male lead does not minimize strong female leads, it enhances them, and vice-versa.

 

What is true femininity to you FP?

[PhuturePriest]

What is true femininity to you FP?

 

I would look to the Church for that answer. But since you made this thread, I would say the question is really what you think femininity is. So far from your posts, being feminine is being a BA woman in charge who is free with photon torpedoes and doesn't have any strong masculine leads near her, as any whiff of masculinity somehow reduces femininity, which is in itself a belief that is sexist towards women, and you haven't reconciled or clarified that part in particular, which I am very much interested in a response to.

[Nihil Obstat]

I dont like the idea that the only way for a woman to be "strong" is that she has to be stripped of her sexuality. I dont think thats fair. Nearly every single male protagonist is able to be kick arse as well as have interest in a female...his amesome is never in question. He doesnt abandon his sexuality. But I also dont expect a cute kids cartoon to get too sexual either...so I feel like you cant really use the fact they arent sexualized as a major point. 

 

I do appreciate your response, it was much more informative. Im not familiar with the Bechdel test either.

I think you misunderstand me a bit. I actually think Elsa as a character is very sexual (see her 'transformation' sequence; I think Elsa the Ice Queen is a clearly sexual being, and I think her transformation is an awakening of sorts, to her sexuality) But I do not think her 'badassitude' is sexualized. That is an important difference.

Many female 'badass' characters are only badass so that they can be sexy while doing it. Lara Croft, for example (although that is perhaps too shallow a look at her). Elsa is badass, but she is badass not so that she can be sexy, but simply because she as a character is badass. And her character has a sexual dimension, but not for the sake of a male love interest, but just because she - as a person - has a sexual component.

[CrossCuT]

I think you misunderstand me a bit. I actually think Elsa as a character is very sexual (see her 'transformation' sequence; I think Elsa the Ice Queen is a clearly sexual being, and I think her transformation is an awakening of sorts, to her sexuality) But I do not think her 'badassitude' is sexualized. That is an important difference.

Many female 'badass' characters are only badass so that they can be sexy while doing it. Lara Croft, for example (although that is perhaps too shallow a look at her). Elsa is badass, but she is badass not so that she can be sexy, but simply because she as a character is badass. And her character has a sexual dimension, but not for the sake of a male love interest, but just because she - as a person - has a sexual component.

 

Ah ok! Im cool with that. I think thats a good explanation and thats all I was really getting at in my post...although I admit I was probably being confusing because I didnt explain myself. 

 

What I mean was that I dont think that a women needs to lose her identity as a woman to be a strong character. Maybe that will help FP a little?

[CrossCuT]

Also just in general (Kind of going off of what Arfink mention earlier) the percentage of the world of film that most people see is incredibly small; they see the large releases. But thats a very narrow section of the entire film world because if you look at independent films and non prime-time network television shows, they're filled with loads of strong female leads! Which is epic! However they don't get nearly the exposure that everything else gets because of money and the fact that Hollywood is a business that wants to give people what will make them the most $$$$.

 

What we need is more female voices in mainstream hollywood. If you look to organizations like Disney to be the front runner of a system of change, don't hold your breath. The company is designed to make money, and the surest way to make money in film is to do that same thing that made money the last time oyu did it; thats why it's slow to change. It's the same reason mainstream films come in fads like Hunger Games, Divergent, Ender's Game, etc. Hollywood just rides out the wave of surefire profits so when they feel that strong independent female leads will generate the big bucks, thats when they'll start cranking them out

in the meantime, my advice to the entire world would be to explore films outside of what is advertised to you 24/7 (*cough*frozen*cough*) just because a film has the most money spent on advertising doesn't mean it's any good.

 

And I think FP made a good point earlier when he said "Men just like to be knights"...which is a perfect regurgitation of what men have been shown in film for soooooo long. They havent really been shown much else so they grow up thinking thats the norm.

 

Also, if there aren't any strong females writing scripts for mainstream Hollywood, you're probably not going to see many strong female main characters come out of mainstream hollywood either. I also think that men are much more reluctant (especially now since feminism is much more vocal) to make a woman their lead for fear of being criticized extremely harshly if they get it wrong, despite where their heart is. So like with anything else, gotta encourage people to be the change they want to see.