We’re Losing All Our Strong Female Characters To Trinity Syndrome

[Nihil Obstat]

Ah ok! Im cool with that. I think thats a good explanation and thats all I was really getting at in my post...although I admit I was probably being confusing because I didnt explain myself. 

 

What I mean was that I dont think that a women needs to lose her identity as a woman to be a strong character. Maybe that will help FP a little?

IMO the idea of the "strong female character" is getting to the point that it is a rather cliched archetype, and perhaps inherently sexist in and of itself. 

 

It's like a female character in media can only be either a damsel in distress, or a sexless robotic killing machine, or an eyecandy killing machine. Nothing much in between. It ignores the huge majority of the feminine experience and it reduces femininity to a discrete set of pre-determined archetypes. Male characters do not fare much better, but at the very least they can have complex motivations and responses that I do not think the set of feminine archetypes can achieve.

[Nihil Obstat]

I took a really hardcore feminist philosophy/film class, so not I have street cred to say this stuff. :|

I liked parts of the class, and other parts were a bit uncomfortable.

[CrossCuT]

IMO the idea of the "strong female character" is getting to the point that it is a rather cliched archetype, and perhaps inherently sexist in and of itself. 

 

It's like a female character in media can only be either a damsel in distress, or a sexless robotic killing machine, or an eyecandy killing machine. Nothing much in between. It ignores the huge majority of the feminine experience and it reduces femininity to a discrete set of pre-determined archetypes. Male characters do not fare much better, but at the very least they can have complex motivations and responses that I do not think the set of feminine archetypes can achieve.

 

Yeah I believe the article kind of goes over that as well. But youre absolutely right...its kind of losing its meaning. 

One exaple they used in the article of a female character with a ton of potential was Hiccups mom from HttYD 2. She has this amazing potential but utterly fizzles out into nothing later. 

[CrossCuT]

I took a really hardcore feminist philosophy/film class, so not I have street cred to say this stuff. :|

I liked parts of the class, and other parts were a bit uncomfortable.

 

:notworthy:

 

  :proud:

[Perigrina]

IMO the idea of the "strong female character" is getting to the point that it is a rather cliched archetype, and perhaps inherently sexist in and of itself. 

 

It's like a female character in media can only be either a damsel in distress, or a sexless robotic killing machine, or an eyecandy killing machine. Nothing much in between. It ignores the huge majority of the feminine experience and it reduces femininity to a discrete set of pre-determined archetypes. Male characters do not fare much better, but at the very least they can have complex motivations and responses that I do not think the set of feminine archetypes can achieve.

 

Exactly.  It is easier to find "strong" females than realistic ones.

 

Anime - from Moribito Gaurdian of the Spirit  - Balsa

 

[CrossCuT]

Im curious what your perspective on all of this is Perigrina since you have admitted in other posts that you prefer classic gender roles. 

For example, do you think we are all just full of hot air? Women are portrayed just fine? jw

[Perigrina]

Romantic Comedy - Easy A - Olive

 

[fides' Jack]

Really the only place you might see some strong women in movies/games etc are in Scifi

 

And you will never see female characters portrayed as sex symbols more than in Scifi.  Above examples included.

[Perigrina]

Detective - Elementary - Joan Watson

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Yeah I believe the article kind of goes over that as well. But youre absolutely right...its kind of losing its meaning. 

One exaple they used in the article of a female character with a ton of potential was Hiccups mom from HttYD 2. She has this amazing potential but utterly fizzles out into nothing later. 

I think I read that same article a few weeks ago. Have not seen that movie yet (and perhaps will not bother), but the article painted a clear enough picture. Another character I thought of in reading the parts you quoted was Trinity from the Matrix. She starts out as a sort of ultimate badass, but about halfway through the film she is utterly outstripped by Neo because he is "The One".

At the same time, given what I know about the Wachowskis, I have a feeling that there could be a deeper meaning to that. Perhaps it was intentional.

 

Exactly.  It is easier to find "strong" females than realistic ones.

 

Anime - from Moribito Gaurdian of the Spirit  - Balsa

 

Lara Croft, whom I mentioned before, is considered by some people to be almost a prototypical strong female character, but in reality I think - and have written a paper arguing - that she is actually one of the most inherently sexist characters I have ever encountered. Basically 'she', as a sort of metaphysical character concept, is a sexy female cover over what is essentially an adolescent male action fantasy.

 

 

What I think is most valuable for women portrayed in the media is a character who is, basically, fully female. I.e. not reduced to a set of features that hit all the boxes on a checklist of "female character traits". Such a character can have roles that we call traditionally feminine, and she might also have traits that are typically reserved for the male protagonist. She has agency of her own, independent of other characters when relevant, and dependent as well, when relevant. Everyone is dependent on other people at some point.

Another valuable development would be for male characters to take on more realistic roles. Like I said, everyone is dependent on other people sometimes. Have a male protagonist really have to rely on a realistic female for some critical help. But then do not reduce the female character to her ability to provide that help, because that still reduces and objectifies both of their roles.

Women are women, not plot devices, and not sexy butts. Men are men, not plot devices, and not flat hero archetypes.

[Perigrina]

Western - Longmire - Deputy Moretti

 

[CrossCuT]

Can people post fewer pictures or at least use their words? Can you give some commentary on the random characters youre posting?

[Perigrina]

Im curious what your perspective on all of this is Perigrina since you have admitted in other posts that you prefer classic gender roles. 

For example, do you think we are all just full of hot air? Women are portrayed just fine? jw

 

 

Women are not portrayed just fine.  It is far easier to find the sort of thing you want than to find a positive portrayal of a woman who finds fulfillment in her husband, children, and caring for her home.

[PhuturePriest]

I can't believe we've gone this long and there hasn't been one mention of Katniss Everdeen.

[Nihil Obstat]

I like to daydream that in an alternate reality, Alice von Hildebrand is a famous screenwriter/director/film producer, and I watch the crap out of every movie she creates. You want to see complex feminine characters with serious agency, she would be incredible at writing that. :|

[Perigrina]

Can people post fewer pictures or at least use their words? Can you give some commentary on the random characters youre posting?

 

I have been posting pictures of women who can pass the requirements of the OP.  The appear in all genres and are easy to come up with.  The quoted article sounds like more feminist looking for something to have a grievance about.  Because women have to be victims.

[Nihil Obstat]

I have only seen The Incredibles once or twice, but Elastigirl/Mrs. Incredible is a very interesting female character. She seems to be empowered in the sense that she does have independent, realistic agency in the movie world, she is portrayed neither as sexless nor as a sexual object, and she chooses, at least inasmuch as her circumstances allow, to fill a rather traditional gender role as a mother and homemaker to a working father.

In a lot of ways she acts as a foil to her husband. She is cautious where he tends to be reckless. She has their family in mind at times where he is inclined - for understandable reasons - to put them at risk. She keeps him grounded to his real vocation, which is to their family. You might perhaps stretch the interpretation a bit to say that she provides the spiritual and nurturing foundation for their family, something to which femininity is arguably more naturally attuned.

I want to watch that movie again now, and see if my musing actually works out. Hm.

[arfink]

I am not going to comment much on the topic of strong female characters, because like strong male characters, it's easy to get wrapped around the axel with "strong _fillintheblank_ characters" when reality has much more variety.

 

A recent one I thought of is, Izumi Curtis from Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. She's a very interesting and believable character who has the strong part down (she's a masterful fighter and alchemist) but who also follows many traditional sexual roles. She calls herself a simple housewife, especially when the bad guys ask her "who ARE you?" after getting their butts kicked. She is married and her deepest ambition was not to be a great fighter and alchemist, but to be a mother. She wasn't able to be a mother, and eventually embraced being sensei to the Elric brothers. That's a cool female character, if you ask me. :)

[Credo in Deum]

Mary from, The Passion of The Christ!

 

 

No one is stronger than her, not even Lone Wolf McQuade.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Credo in Deum

[Winchester]

So...who here writes fiction?