oremus1 Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 Only 16 for ladies and 19 for men worldwide. Why so few orders with Extraordinary Form? And if there are many young people interested in such orders, what happens to them when the full convents / monasteries turn them away? Do they go to Novus Ordo commnties? Get married? Become CVs? Or stay privately vowed?
maximillion Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 Extra-ordinary.......this surely tells you something? If the extraordinary were common or mainstream it would cease to be extraordinary, in the Mass or in your breakfast cereal! Or maybe that is the way the Holy Spirit wants it. Why do you think there are so few?
oremus1 Posted July 11, 2014 Author Posted July 11, 2014 Extra-ordinary.......this surely tells you something? If the extraordinary were common or mainstream it would cease to be extraordinary, in the Mass or in your breakfast cereal! Or maybe that is the way the Holy Spirit wants it. Why do you think there are so few? all the traddies say that the EF vocations are booming, habited communities are getting all the vocations, and they cite the huge downfall in vocations worldwide between 1965 compared to 2010 due to the Novus Ordo. so if this is so, why so few convents/orders? they think a return to EF only will mean many vocations.
krissylou Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Only 16 for ladies and 19 for men worldwide. Why so few orders with Extraordinary Form? And if there are many young people interested in such orders, what happens to them when the full convents / monasteries turn them away? Do they go to Novus Ordo commnties? Get married? Become CVs? Or stay privately vowed? Well, largely because Summum Pontificorum is less than a decade old and it would have been trickier to specialize in the Extraordinary Form before then. Not strictly impossible, but much harder, and this current bishop may be perfectly happy to grant permission but he's going to retire someday and then what about his successor, etc.? As time goes on, I would expect the number of EF communities would grow to more or less balance out the "demand" of vocations. Valparaiso Carmel, for instance, has been more or less bursting at the seams with new vocations because they were the only EF Carmel around for a while. They've made two foundations in relatively short order and they get a bunch of vocations too. Eventually things should sort of even out so there are enough foundations that it all more or less balances out. "Supply and demand" seems a cold way to talk about it, but something like that should kick in. What happens when people are turned away from full EF communities? Well, what happens when anyone is interested in a community but it doesn't work out? This is a thing that happens, not just for people who prefer the Extraordinary Form. Sometimes they enter a different community, sometimes they discern they are called to a different state of life. I mean that's never easy but I would have to think that "We are full up and not accepting applications right now" has got to be among the more understandable and hopefully less painful ways to be turned away. It's never easy but still. Edited because my high school Latin teacher would be furious if I didn't spell Summum Pontificorum correctly. Edited July 11, 2014 by krissylou
Nihil Obstat Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 Perhaps the situation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate has some relevance to this question.
beatitude Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 I second what Krissylou said about the age of Summum Pontificorum. Also, remember that priests have to be specially taught how to offer Mass in the EF - for many of them it won't have been part of their seminary training. Sometimes a community would like to have an EF Mass but they don't have that option, so the nuns do without it - they don't throw their veils back on the rack just because they can't have the liturgy they want. There is growth but it will take time.
Hemma Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 @krissylou: oh dear:) isn't it Summorum Pontificum? :smile3: We all do mistakes, please don't look too sharp at my English;) To the question what happens to unlucky candidates who are turned away from Ecclesia Dei communities: In Germany we have only three or four options for women, which are quite specific in their charism. So a young woman who does not incidentally feel called to that specific charisms has three options: she enters a NO community that fits her sense of charism; she enters an Ecclesia Dei community and tries to adjust to the charism, which is not her natural one; she stays in the world as a single (waiting for better times) or something else. I personally know quite a number of women from the first or the third type, but I suppose the second type exists too.
Hemma Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 Where I shall end up isn't sure yet. At the moment I try for type one.
krissylou Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 @krissylou: oh dear:) isn't it Summorum Pontificum? :smile3: We all do mistakes, please don't look too sharp at my English;) I googled and you're right! Oh dear Mrs. Davis is not happy with me right now ... that having been said high school was a ways back ...
Hemma Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 Never mind. It was just so funny after you'd already spoken of your Latin teacher. I knew it only because we had talked about SP so often.
krissylou Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 they think a return to EF only will mean many vocations. Well maybe. But right now, anyone who's going to an Traditional Latin Mass/Extraordinary Form is deliberately seeking it out, often at significant trouble and inconvenience. So it makes a ton of sense to me that the average person in the pews at an TLM Mass takes the faith more seriously than the average person in the pews who just goes to the neighborhood parish because that's what you do and whatever. It's a different sample set. If every neighborhood parish had the Traditional Latin Mass as the routine, then the sample of people attending the TLM becomes very different. Geez first I talk in economic terms, now in statistics. I don't mean to make this sound so cold and calculating!
chrysostom Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 Only 16 for ladies and 19 for men worldwide. Why so few orders with Extraordinary Form? Because you can only really count orders/communities founded since 1970 after practically every order made the switch to the Missal of Paul VI. And even then you'd have to wait till Ecclesia Dei in 1988 before which the Traditional Latin Mass was treated as if it were abrogated. And even then you'd do best to wait until Summorum Pontificum in 2007 before you could get a good idea of the rate of founding of EF orders/communities. In addition, since the portion of Catholics attached to the Traditional Latin Mass is so small worldwide to start with, the overall worldwide numbers for traditional vocations are necessarily very small. Add to that a lack of enthusiasm for the TLM among bishops in most places (often more than just that of course) and the scarcity of resources in traditional congregations and you get these numbers. The rate of growth could be insanely high and you'd still have just a few orders. Growth takes time. Putting down roots can't be hurried. Of course, things might change more if some of the larger communities/orders made a shift towards using the EF. There appear to be certain difficulties with that, though.
krissylou Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 Never mind. It was just so funny after you'd already spoken of your Latin teacher. I knew it only because we had talked about SP so often. yeah I put the wrong word in the genitive. Oh well ... pride cometh before the fall. ;)
oremus1 Posted July 11, 2014 Author Posted July 11, 2014 @krissylou: oh dear:) isn't it Summorum Pontificum? :smile3: We all do mistakes, please don't look too sharp at my English;) To the question what happens to unlucky candidates who are turned away from Ecclesia Dei communities: In Germany we have only three or four options for women, which are quite specific in their charism. So a young woman who does not incidentally feel called to that specific charisms has three options: she enters a NO community that fits her sense of charism; she enters an Ecclesia Dei community and tries to adjust to the charism, which is not her natural one; she stays in the world as a single (waiting for better times) or something else. I personally know quite a number of women from the first or the third type, but I suppose the second type exists too. Yes it is that way. and the EF orders are VERY selective. Some even have an upper age of 25 or 28! Most are contemplative with strict horarium. it is so painful when the Lord is at the centre of your heart and life, yet he is shunted off to the side during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So disturbing as you prepare for Holy Communion that they all leap excitedly to make the hug of peace with everyone, including the priest without purifying his hands. So awful they hold hands to sign the Our Father. Dont even let me continue. Im thinking option 1) will try . there are some non-EF communities which are bi-ritual, others withtheir own liturgy which is reverent like the Norbertines. Some Novus Ordo ones are a bit reverent and orthodox. there is also the consecration of virgins. that is a different vocation. but one that many young women desiring to devote their lives to the Lord may be called to. then you can also be very traditional but have to remain in the world. check out http://consecratedvirgins.org for more info. it is very beautiful and ancient vocation.
oremus1 Posted July 11, 2014 Author Posted July 11, 2014 Because you can only really count orders/communities founded since 1970 after practically every order made the switch to the Missal of Paul VI. And even then you'd have to wait till Ecclesia Dei in 1988 before which the Traditional Latin Mass was treated as if it were abrogated. And even then you'd do best to wait until Summorum Pontificum in 2007 before you could get a good idea of the rate of founding of EF orders/communities. In addition, since the portion of Catholics attached to the Traditional Latin Mass is so small worldwide to start with, the overall worldwide numbers for traditional vocations are necessarily very small. Add to that a lack of enthusiasm for the Traditional Latin Mass among bishops in most places (often more than just that of course) and the scarcity of resources in traditional congregations and you get these numbers. The rate of growth could be insanely high and you'd still have just a few orders. Growth takes time. Putting down roots can't be hurried. Of course, things might change more if some of the larger communities/orders made a shift towards using the EF. There appear to be certain difficulties with that, though. should we offer Masses and penance in reparation for the Novus Ordo?
krissylou Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 If you're looking at monasteries, I bet you could find one that celebrates the Ordinary Form in a formal enough manner for you. If you're looking at active congregations, well, a lot of the time you're going to go to the neighborhood parish, whatever it is. And they vary a lot. And I don't know much but I can pretty much guarantee that at some point you'll be in a parish where their approach to the liturgy drives you up the wall. And I'm not just saying that because you have a preference for the Extraordinary Form. Whatever forms of the liturgy are particularly nourishing for you, whether you love the Latin or think Marty Haugen is the greatest thing since sliced bread, at some point you'll be stationed in an area where the local parish leaves you cold and flat but it's what you've got. And then your task is to be grateful for what's there (it is still Jesus after all!), learn that there can be good and holy people who are nurtured by something very different than what nurtures you, and then when you get a chance to attend a liturgy that is particularly nourishing for you, you can be especially grateful for that opportunity.
chrysostom Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 should we offer Masses and penance in reparation for the Novus Ordo? ???
oremus1 Posted July 11, 2014 Author Posted July 11, 2014 If you're looking at monasteries, I bet you could find one that celebrates the Ordinary Form in a formal enough manner for you. If you're looking at active congregations, well, a lot of the time you're going to go to the neighborhood parish, whatever it is. And they vary a lot. And I don't know much but I can pretty much guarantee that at some point you'll be in a parish where their approach to the liturgy drives you up the wall. And I'm not just saying that because you have a preference for the Extraordinary Form. Whatever forms of the liturgy are particularly nourishing for you, whether you love the Latin or think Marty Haugen is the greatest thing since sliced bread, at some point you'll be stationed in an area where the local parish leaves you cold and flat but it's what you've got. And then your task is to be grateful for what's there (it is still Jesus after all!), learn that there can be good and holy people who are nurtured by something very different than what nurtures you, and then when you get a chance to attend a liturgy that is particularly nourishing for you, you can be especially grateful for that opportunity. why would anyone be nurtured spiritually by their shepherd, the priest, turning their back on the Lord?
brandelynmarie Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 should we offer Masses and penance in reparation for the Novus Ordo? Kindly, gently, no. :) For example, I am more spiritually drawn to Maronite Rite. I find it extremely reverent & beautiful with the focus on the Majesty & Mystery of God. The songs may not be to my liking. I don't personally care for the noisy sign of peace. It often reminds me of when our Lord walked the streets of Jerusalem...but I offer HIm my love & reverence to the best of my ability whatever rite I attend...
OnlySunshine Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 why would anyone be nurtured spiritually by their shepherd, the priest, turning their back on the Lord? It seems to me that you are focusing too much on one singular aspect. If the Church allows for both the EF and OF forms, then the priest is not turning their back on the Lord.
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