Nihil Obstat Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 If you're looking at monasteries, I bet you could find one that celebrates the Ordinary Form in a formal enough manner for you. Depends on one's reasons for preferring the traditional Mass. For those priests who choose to primarily celebrate the traditional Mass, for instance the FSSP, a fairly large proportion of them would not celebrate the Novus Ordo no matter how formally it was done. My priest for instance categorically will not celebrate the Novus Ordo, and as he would be the celebrant it is simply not a matter of how formally it could be performed. He will not even concelebrate the diocesan chrism Mass. It stands to reason that many laypeople would feel similarly.
brandelynmarie Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) It seems to me that you are focusing too much on one singular aspect. If the Church allows for both the EF and OF forms, then the priest is not turning their back on the Lord. This is what I tried to say, but didn't, lol. And now that I think about it, the Maronite Rite I attend has the priest facing the people...& it is still very reverential. Edited July 11, 2014 by brandelynmarie
beatitude Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) why would anyone be nurtured spiritually by their shepherd, the priest, turning their back on the Lord? This makes me think of a statement by St Dorotheos of Gaza: I heard of one person that when he came to one of his friends and found the room in disarray and even dirty, he would say to himself: "Blessed is this person, because having deferred his concerns for earthly cares, he has concentrated his mind that much toward Heaven, that he doesn’t even have time to tidy up his room." But when he came to another friend’s place and found his room tidy and neat, he would say to himself; "The soul of this person is as clean as his room, and the condition of the room speaks of his soul." And he never judged another that he was negligent or proud, but through his kind disposition, saw good in everyone and received benefits from everyone. May the good Lord grant us the same kind disposition, so that we too may receive benefits from everyone and so that we never notice the failings of others You could interpret the priest's posture during the Novus Ordo as 'turning his back on the Lord' - but you could also interpret it as him standing with Jesus and facing out, demonstrating that he is acting in persona christi for us. Some people might interpret the priest's posture during the Extraordinary Form as cold and exclusionary, shutting out the people and turning Mass into an empty performance - but they could also interpret it as the priest demonstrating a profound intimacy with Jesus, and encouraging us to cultivate respect for that and to strive for it ourselves in the stillness of our hearts. Always take the most loving interpretation. It is the best way to pray, especially if you are going to be a religious sister. They often find themselves in situations that wouldn't be their first choice, but obedience makes it necessary for them to be there, and looking at things in the kindest possible light brings more good to them and to the world than finding things to criticise. Edited July 11, 2014 by beatitude
brandelynmarie Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 ^^^^^ This. :) Beautiful. And now I know how to explain my disorganized house :hehe:
OnlySunshine Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 ^^^^^ This. :) Beautiful. And now I know how to explain my disorganized house :hehe: I know how to explain my disorganized room. :hehe2:
Maggyie Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 should we offer Masses and penance in reparation for the Novus Ordo? Oremus, why would you post something so hurtful and anti-Catholic? Such controversy doesn't belong on VS.
veritasluxmea Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 it is so painful when the Lord is at the centre of your heart and life, yet he is shunted off to the side during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So disturbing as you prepare for Holy Communion that they all leap excitedly to make the hug of peace with everyone, including the priest without purifying his hands. So awful they hold hands to sign the Our Father. Dont even let me continue. I think it's important to note that not every NO parish/mass does things like that. Many NO masses have the tabernacle front and center, have a quiet and respectful sign of peace, and don't hold hands for the Our Father. Just because something is NO doesn't mean it's done irreverently. And technically, none of those things make the mass invalid or "bad". The Church has approved of the NO, it's here to stay. Also consider that before Vatican II, some (many?) masses were done in badly-pronounced Latin, were hurried, not every woman covered their hair, people would smoke in the pews, and the list of peccadilloes goes on. Just because it's a Latin mass doesn't mean it's a reverent mass either!
brandelynmarie Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 I also love the fact that you used the word peccadilloes. Just sayin' ;)
brandelynmarie Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 yeah I put the wrong word in the genitive. Oh well ... pride cometh before the fall. ;) You are still way ahead of me, lol. :console:
maximillion Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 I have an excuse for my disorganised life......love it. In the convent in the early days my NM gave me a personal conference on the nature of charity in the sisterhood. "Whatever you observe in your Sisters, whatever you see of their behaviour, always and without fail think with charity. You see X Sister apparently flouting the rule - presume she has an extraordinary permission. You notice Sister Y overeating - think only that she must have worked hard that morning. If Sister V speaks to you sharply, or criticises you, embrace it not only for your humility but think well of that Sister who may be struggling with the Dark Night. In other words, have no judgement in your heart." It was and has been a difficult path, and still is, but yes, judge not. I attend the NO because that is the form in my parish church. It is not noisy or rowdy, but cordial and polite ( we have to be British about it! ) If I see someone doing something 'off', I try to have that same attitude we fostered in the convent.
oremus1 Posted July 12, 2014 Author Posted July 12, 2014 It seems to me that you are focusing too much on one singular aspect. If the Church allows for both the EF and OF forms, then the priest is not turning their back on the Lord. i meant, versus populum
oremus1 Posted July 12, 2014 Author Posted July 12, 2014 Depends on one's reasons for preferring the traditional Mass. For those priests who choose to primarily celebrate the traditional Mass, for instance the FSSP, a fairly large proportion of them would not celebrate the Novus Ordo no matter how formally it was done. My priest for instance categorically will not celebrate the Novus Ordo, and as he would be the celebrant it is simply not a matter of how formally it could be performed. He will not even concelebrate the diocesan chrism Mass. It stands to reason that many laypeople would feel similarly. ^^^ this. what are wannabe monks/nuns to do??? many such convents are busting or full already
maximillion Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 The Spirit blows where He will......... Historical and some other reasons have been given for the 'lack' you speak of. Ultimately it comes down to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It would seem these communities are not being Inspired into being.
beatitude Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 ^^^ this. what are wannabe monks/nuns to do??? many such convents are busting or full already Perhaps they should try to remember that we worship Jesus through the liturgy, we don't worship the liturgy itself? Unless you are a discerner who hoped to enter a community with the EF Mass and were been turned away for lack of room (and it doesn't sound as though you are, going by your previous posts - in other places you have said that you're a CV) then I don't see what this hypothetical thread is meant to achieve except give you a chance to suggest that the Novus Ordo is sinful (as you did when you asked if we should make reparation for it).
oremus1 Posted July 12, 2014 Author Posted July 12, 2014 Perhaps they should try to remember that we worship Jesus through the liturgy, we don't worship the liturgy itself? Unless you are a discerner who hoped to enter a community with the EF Mass and were been turned away for lack of room (and it doesn't sound as though you are, going by your previous posts - in other places you have said that you're a CV) then I don't see what this hypothetical thread is meant to achieve except give you a chance to suggest that the Novus Ordo is sinful (as you did when you asked if we should make reparation for it). We can make reparation for communion in the hand though? Barnabas Nwoye said that the Lord said "It gives me great agony to see people recieveing communion in the hand". Also, the REAL third secret of Fatima said many things which seem to be about the NO. Bishop Schnider says there is likely to be schism between those who are Catholic and those who are modernist.
Nunsense Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 We can make reparation for communion in the hand though? Barnabas Nwoye said that the Lord said "It gives me great agony to see people recieveing communion in the hand". Also, the REAL third secret of Fatima said many things which seem to be about the NO. Bishop Schnider says there is likely to be schism between those who are Catholic and those who are modernist. I think the real schism comes when one side insists that their way is the only way that is reverent and condemns the other side for doing what it lawful and in most places recommended by the Church itself. The whole debate about on the tongue or in the hand belongs in the Debate Table but honestly, it is only brought up by those who want to insist that those of us who receive in the hand are somehow less reverent than they are who receive on the tongue. Those who receive on the hand are not condemning those who receive on the tongue. So who is causing the schism?? One day I was speaking to a Carmelite sister in one of my previous convents and I said, I love Jesus so much I wish I could just hold Him. She said to me, 'You do, every time you receive Him in your hand at Mass.' And I realized she was right. After that, every time I received Him, I gazed reverently at Him before putting Him into my mouth. And BTW in ALL 4 of the Carmels where I have been, the majority of sisters have received on the hand. And in the 1990 Constitutions Carmel (which is very pre Vat 2), they switched from tongue to hand while I was there because their Bishop had asked them to during the SARS scare - and they were being obedient. I doubt that any one of them felt less reverent towards the Eucharist. When I see Jesus in heaven, is He really going to ask me, did you receive me on your tongue or your hand? I don't think so. He is going to judge me on the reverence in my heart. "God does not see as a mortal, who sees the appearance. The LORD looks into the heart." 1 Sam 16:7
maximillion Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 Grrr....out of props Nunsense, but I agree as above.
oremus1 Posted July 12, 2014 Author Posted July 12, 2014 I think the real schism comes when one side insists that their way is the only way that is reverent and condemns the other side for doing what it lawful and in most places recommended by the Church itself. The whole debate about on the tongue or in the hand belongs in the Debate Table but honestly, it is only brought up by those who want to insist that those of us who receive in the hand are somehow less reverent than they are who receive on the tongue. Those who receive on the hand are not condemning those who receive on the tongue. So who is causing the schism?? One day I was speaking to a Carmelite sister in one of my previous convents and I said, I love Jesus so much I wish I could just hold Him. She said to me, 'You do, every time you receive Him in your hand at Mass.' And I realized she was right. After that, every time I received Him, I gazed reverently at Him before putting Him into my mouth. And BTW in ALL 4 of the Carmels where I have been, the majority of sisters have received on the hand. And in the 1990 Constitutions Carmel (which is very pre Vat 2), they switched from tongue to hand while I was there because their Bishop had asked them to during the SARS scare - and they were being obedient. I doubt that any one of them felt less reverent towards the Eucharist. When I see Jesus in heaven, is He really going to ask me, did you receive me on your tongue or your hand? I don't think so. He is going to judge me on the reverence in my heart. "God does not see as a mortal, who sees the appearance. The LORD looks into the heart." 1 Sam 16:7 this is going off topic clearly people feel strongly about the EF and associated issues. so surely it is just a matter of time before there are more orders to join which are exclusively EF. Deo gratias.
Nunsense Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) this is going off topic clearly people feel strongly about the EF and associated issues. so surely it is just a matter of time before there are more orders to join which are exclusively EF. Deo gratias. I think you went off topic first by talking about reparation for receiving in the hand, and I simply responded, as I disagree with your views (and so does the Church). Certainly if a person has a strong affinity for the EF, then they should discern with those communities only. But to post a controversial statement on VS about receiving in the hand is just asking for trouble. Threads on VS get shut down when they turn into debates or they get moved to the Debate Table. BTW, there is nothing to stop you from starting [yet another] thread about this controversial topic in the Debate Table should you wish to discuss it further. I do hope, for those who prefer the EF, that more communities develop that can accommodate them. But no one should be made to feel in any way less reverent because they choose not to attend the EF Mass, not to receive in the hand, or not to enter an EF-only community. Pax Christi. Edited July 12, 2014 by nunsense
brandelynmarie Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 One day I was speaking to a Carmelite sister in one of my previous convents and I said, I love Jesus so much I wish I could just hold Him. She said to me, 'You do, every time you receive Him in your hand at Mass.' And I realized she was right. After that, every time I received Him, I gazed reverently at Him before putting Him into my mouth. This is what I do in my parish church. At the Maronite shrine, I receive on the tongue by intincture...I think that's the word...
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