Vegetarian Orders/communities?

[Nunsense]

By vegetarian I mean not eating animals. No fish, chicken, shrimp etc.
Only things grown in the ground, or dairy.
 
 
yes but for many, eating meat is a moral issue, it is not just a 'I don't really like the taste of chicken....'.
it would conflict their conscience. some of them have never eaten meat in their life.
 
also, I don't see why people thing a vegetarian diet is so complicated. take a normal meal. remove the meat. replace with a glass of milk. you have a vegetarian meal.

 
 
Although I do understand the personal concerns involved (having been through it myself), don't forget that when St Peter didn't want to eat the foods that were forbidden to Jews, God gave him a vision in which he was told that what God has made clean, not to call profane. God has not forbidden us to eat meat, even though we may have our own concerns about animal slaughter, it is a private and personal morality, not a Catholic one. That is why even convents that have traditionally not eaten meat for a variety of reasons (penance, poverty, etc) have sometimes re-evaluated their position about it. As Sr Mary Catherine points out, fish used to be cheap and meat expensive, but these days, fish can be a luxury item. When I was in England, our chaplain asked me how we, as nuns vowed to poverty, could afford to eat fish every day. He told me that he certainly couldn't afford it! Sometimes being practical or just having common sense means that we might have to surrender our own personal choices - at least that is so if you live in a religious community.
 
He was hungry and wished to eat, and while they were making preparations he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered to the ground by its four corners.In it were all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky.A voice said to him, “Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.” But Peter said, “Certainly not, sir. For never have I eaten anything profane and unclean.” The voice spoke to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.”
 Acts 10:10-15

[oremus1]

 
 
Although I do understand the personal concerns involved (having been through it myself), don't forget that when St Peter didn't want to eat the foods that were forbidden to Jews, God gave him a vision in which he was told that what God has made clean, not to call profane. God has not forbidden us to eat meat, even though we may have our own concerns about animal slaughter, it is a private and personal morality, not a Catholic one. That is why even convents that have traditionally not eaten meat for a variety of reasons (penance, poverty, etc) have sometimes re-evaluated their position about it. As Sr Mary Catherine points out, fish used to be cheap and meat expensive, but these days, fish can be a luxury item. When I was in England, our chaplain asked me how we, as nuns vowed to poverty, could afford to eat fish every day. He told me that he certainly couldn't afford it! Sometimes being practical or just having common sense means that we might have to surrender our own personal choices - at least that is so if you live in a religious community.
 
He was hungry and wished to eat, and while they were making preparations he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered to the ground by its four corners.In it were all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky.A voice said to him, “Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.” But Peter said, “Certainly not, sir. For never have I eaten anything profane and unclean.” The voice spoke to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.”
 Acts 10:10-15

 

I never said it was profane. you cannot surely be denying that meat is the product of procuring death.

and while fish and chicken might be cheap, beans are cheaper. and possibly milk.

 

so I don't see why 'having common sense' means one must eat meat.

 

it isn't complicated. someone gives you a plate of fish with rice. you leave the fish and eat the rice.

[Nunsuch]

Oremus, in many communities--especially the strict ones that you seem attracted to (and I am not being critical)--one is to eat everything as a matter of obedience. And "leaving" something is a violation of the vow of poverty. 

 

Part of religious life is putting aside one's own preferences.  It really is neessary to understand that, just maybe, someone else may know what is best. 

[Nunsense]

I never said it was profane. you cannot surely be denying that meat is the product of procuring death.

and while fish and chicken might be cheap, beans are cheaper. and possibly milk.

 

so I don't see why 'having common sense' means one must eat meat.

 

it isn't complicated. someone gives you a plate of fish with rice. you leave the fish and eat the rice.

 

Fish is not cheap - I just got through saying that, especially in England! But you missed the point. One of the aspects of religious life is that you don't always get things the way you want them, so there might be some aspects of it that might not be exactly as you want them to be. Self sacrifice is part of the lifestyle. So if vegetarianism is that important to you, then you either need to find a community that feels as you do or stay in the world.

 

But don't forget that Jesus ate fish as did his disciples. And although it doesn't specifically say so in the Bible, being a Jew, He probably also ate the Passover lamb. His family certainly sacrificed at the Temple, and when Mary went for her purification after giving birth to Jesus, they took a sacrifice with them:

 

"They also offered a sacrifice according to what is specified in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons." Lk 2:24

 

Yes, you have a right to your own personal moral standards, but nowhere does God forbid humans from eating meat (despite the fact that the animals have to die in order for this to happen) and in fact, it does state that he created animals for humans. There are different levels of morality, but being a vegetarian is purely a personal choice, not a Catholic point of view. 

 

It's all about priorities. If vegetarianism is a priority for you, especially at this stage in your life, then that is something you certainly have to take into consideration while discerning.

[oremus1]

Oremus, in many communities--especially the strict ones that you seem attracted to (and I am not being critical)--one is to eat everything as a matter of obedience. And "leaving" something is a violation of the vow of poverty. 

 

Part of religious life is putting aside one's own preferences.  It really is neessary to understand that, just maybe, someone else may know what is best. 

 

 

yes well some orders are vegetarian and this thread is so they may be listed. if there are two with a similar charism, but one is cegetarian and the other isnt, one might wish to take that into consideration.

 

also everyone is more or less saying 'vegetarians are fussy and disobedient and self aborbed'. but some countries actually make it obligatory to abstain form meat on fridays. Eastern Orthodox Lent is very strict too. and many people fast from meat during lent.

[oremus1]

also, very many saints were vegetarian. the rule of st benedict actually refers to vegetarianism. if they were so wrong and disobedient then how comes were they saints?

[Nunsense]

yes well some orders are vegetarian and this thread is so they may be listed. if there are two with a similar charism, but one is cegetarian and the other isnt, one might wish to take that into consideration.

 

also everyone is more or less saying 'vegetarians are fussy and disobedient and self aborbed'. but some countries actually make it obligatory to abstain form meat on fridays. Eastern Orthodox Lent is very strict too. and many people fast from meat during lent.

 

 

There is a difference between not eating meat during Lent or on Fridays, and not being prepared to eat meat ever, even if it is served to you in community. So if it is that important to you, then yes, you need to find a community that feels as you do.

 

But even if a community is listed as vegetarian, as most OCD communities are - there are exceptions since each community is autonomous, so be sure to ask this question of the Prioress when you enquire.

[OnlySunshine]

We never ate meat until about the 80's when fish became very expensive and people would be offering us meat, especially turkeys. We felt it was more in keeping with poverty to accept the meat and eat it. Since the early 90's our Friday Fish is donated by a generous family. We don't eat meat during Advent and Lent. There are quite a few sisters who can't eat fish which sometimes means that the diet kitchen needs to prepare something for nearly half of the community.

 

Fish used to be the food of the poor and shell fish too used to be plentiful and cheap. I'm told that on the big feasts like Christmas and Easter they ate shrimp, crab, and lobster! Now, today we would say that was against poverty! But then it was cheap! I remember as a little girl in the 70's eating fresh, jumbo shrimp on Fridays all the time! I recently found out that Eastern rite religious don't eat fish during Lent except Sundays but then can eat shellfish. Another favorite meal (and one we still make during Lent) is "mock turkey" using walnuts. It's a lot of work to preparing and frankly, it doesn't taste like mock anything but it's tasty. We have a mock meatloaf that uses cottage cheese and it really does taste good.

 

This all by way of showing that times have changed and that the ancient rules, which had practical reasons behind them, sometimes no longer apply and changes need to be made. When one enters the monastery a certain interest in what is being served at meals is OK but it's good to develop a detachment and just eat what is put in front of you. "Blessed be God in his gifts!" If we receive something special and tasty, thanks be to God. If it's something, well, not to our liking, thanks be to God!

 

I wish shrimp, crab and lobster were inexpensive these days!  I LOVE crab legs so much - in fact, my birthday is coming up at the end of the month and I tell my mom every year that I really want to go to a seafood restaurant.  We found a great little place that's been open nearly 40 years on the other side of town near the beach and I'd love to go back.  Anyway, I'm making myself salivate so...  :drool:
 

[Antigonos]

By vegetarian I mean not eating animals. No fish, chicken, shrimp etc.

Only things grown in the ground, or dairy.
 

 

yes but for many, eating meat is a moral issue, it is not just a 'I don't really like the taste of chicken....'.

it would conflict their conscience. some of them have never eaten meat in their life.

 

also, I don't see why people thing a vegetarian diet is so complicated. take a normal meal. remove the meat. replace with a glass of milk. you have a vegetarian meal.

 

There is considerable confusion between vegetarian and vegan diets.  Vegetarians usually will eat dairy and egg products, and some even include fish.  Vegans forego everything that is not from plants.  Getting balanced and adequate nutrition in a vegan diet is very difficult. 

[Nunsuch]

Oremus, no one is saying that vegetarianism is *wrong*--we are saying that NOT being a vegetarian is not wrong, either, nor is one OR the other a sign of "holiness."  And, while Benedict may have been a vegetarian, there is no evidence that he was considered a saint BECAUSE he was a vegetarian.  

 

I see no one here who is claiming that vegetarians are fussy and disobedient. Please read what people are actually saying. The point is that this is not an essential element of either religious life or holiness. And, once one is in religious life, I would hope that one would be flexible enough to put the community above one's individual preferences.  Essential to most forms of religious life is COMMUNITY.  Even orders like the Carthusians eat what they are given, not what they prefer personally.... 

 

Enough.

[oremus1]

Oremus, no one is saying that vegetarianism is *wrong*--we are saying that NOT being a vegetarian is not wrong, either, nor is one OR the other a sign of "holiness."  And, while Benedict may have been a vegetarian, there is no evidence that he was considered a saint BECAUSE he was a vegetarian.  

 

I see no one here who is claiming that vegetarians are fussy and disobedient. Please read what people are actually saying. The point is that this is not an essential element of either religious life or holiness. And, once one is in religious life, I would hope that one would be flexible enough to put the community above one's individual preferences.  Essential to most forms of religious life is COMMUNITY.  Even orders like the Carthusians eat what they are given, not what they prefer personally.... 

 

Enough.

 

 

The POINT of this thread is to list such communities for those of whom it is of interest.

[Feankie]

"The POINT of this thread is to list such communities for those of whom it is of interest."


If that is indeed the case I would posit we have gotten W A Y off track.

[beatitude]

Some communities do make provision for sisters who are vegetarian before they enter. I know some Augustinian sisters in England where this is the case (the Canonesses of the Mercy of Jesus). I was surprised to find that some sisters there are vegetarian while others aren't, but with their apostolate it's easy. They work in a nursing home that is attached to their convent, and they always have a choice of meals on offer for their patients (including a veggie option), so it's simplest for the sisters just to have whatever the patients are having. This enables vegetarian sisters to stay vegetarian.

[brandelynmarie]

I also want to mention Jesus also probably ate fish, He knew how to cook it ;)...In St. John, Chapter 21, Jesus cooked breakfast for His disciples after the Resurrection....it was fish & bread.

We have been discussing the Minims in other threads, are they still strictly vegetarian with a perpetual Lenten fast?

And what about that newer Franciscan community in the US? The sisters are cloistered & at one point were living very simply without refrigeration...does anyone else have any info?


It may be easier to inquire each community individually about vegetarian diets...although those Augustinians mentioned above sound promising...

Edited July 13, 2014 by brandelynmarie

[Antigonos]

I also want to mention Jesus also probably ate fish, He knew how to cook it ;)...In St. John, Chapter 21, Jesus cooked breakfast for His disciples after the Resurrection....it was fish & bread.
 

 

It wasn't very long ago that eating meat -- or even poultry -- was a very special thing, usually reserved for the rich, or possible for the less affluent only on special occasions.  We tend to forget this.  Peasants would eat porridge and legumes, eat cheese, or, if they kept a cow or goat, drink milk. Animals were too precious to slaughter as long as they continued to give milk or lay eggs.  As recently as the mid-19th century, the Irish ate literally pounds of potatoes per day, and washed it down with buttermilk -- one of the reasons that the potato blight was so devastating as to cause the Great Famine of 1845.  They had nothing else to eat.  Grain was grown to sell to pay the land rents.  The steep rise in the cost of bread was a contributing factor to the French Revolution because it formed such a large part of the diet of the working classes.

 

So there is vegetarianism as an ideology, and vegetarianism as a necessity.  The lower classes weren't vegetarian by choice but because meat was simply a luxury they usually couldn't afford.  I suspect that originally most religious orders, as a means of keeping the vow of poverty, kept meat off the menu for that reason.

[brandelynmarie]

Could someone make Antigonos a Chummy Commoner so we can prop her & pm her? Thanks :)

[Nunsense]

Could someone make Antigonos a Chummy Commoner so we can prop her & pm her? Thanks :)

 

 

I second the motion! :) 

[maximillion]

To the OP.......re a list of communities that are vegetarian.....

 

As I think you can see from this thread, vegetarianism (and the reasons for it or otherwise) varies greatly from community to community and is probably to some degree in flux.

 

That is why we have not responded with a list.

1) We don't actually KNOW for certain.

2) any list (on any subject just about) becomes very quickly obsolete. We might make a list today that would be out of date in a month.

3) We simply do not have that information.

4) Since this is obviously a big item for you, it is better that you ask this of any community you feel called to. That way you can be certain the information is correct.

5) In almost every Order I am aware of save one, there is provision for those who are ill or have to eat meat for constitutional reasons, permission is allowed for this. Therefore, in essence, there are no communities that are strictly vegetarian!!!

 

 

In all the time I have been around on phatmass, and maybe for those who have been here much longer, this has never been previously requested. Perhaps that is because those for whom it is an issue realise they need to address this with the individual order. This has now been suggested more than a few times.

You cannot MAKE us produce a list.......

 

There isn't one and it does not seem like anyone on here is going to contribute one.

Sorry.

 

Maybe you would like to do the research yourself and post one somewhere, since most of us appear not to be responding?

[Egeria]

To add to what Maximillion has very sensibly stated above, even if you were to come up with such a list, you cannot assume that those communities' motivation in being vegetarian is the same as your own or that their practice of it will meet your own criteria. The historical monastic tradition favouring vegetarianism was basically ascetical rather than ethical, which meant that exceptions were more easily made when deemed appropriate. My experience in two communities that were commonly considered vegetarian was that not only was meat given to the sick (as St Benedict says it should be) but that it was not considered inappropriate to use animal products in cooking if they happened to be around. For example, the juice that the meat for the sick had cooked in might be added to the soup, something that would be a problem for principled vegetarians. This is because the underlying motivation is different.

[Benedictus]

I'm Vegetarian (and practically a Vegan at home) and discerning, with Benedictines and now the Jesuits. Both have said they wouldn't expect me to eat meat or drink milk. I was releaved as I thought it would really reduce the communities available to discern with. Similarly, they said they wouldn't force someone to eat something they hate to eat or something where the taste makes them feel sick. Some communities offer more than one type of meal and or allow you to leave bits off that you don't want. I think many communities realise the world and culture is different and so they will cook or provide food with more thought than maybe many did in years gone by. Some, especially monastics, know about  and respect other non christian monastic traditions where meat is prohibited on ethical grounds, not simply for ascetical reasons. So they may well be growing more open to these ideas.

I'm sure some other communities, who seem to have meat enforced policies, would be willing to review their practices if they realised they'd be putting people off because of this issue. Of course it may not be practical for other communities, for whatever reason, and that's there choice. It's for the person to decide whether they want to discern and compromise on that issue or not.