Is It Moral To Make Contraception Illegal?

[CrossCuT]

Am I making sense? Your replies are merely semantics..."everything is Catholicism" "the worlds reality is Catholicism". Yeah I get it. Doesnt change whats going on though. LIke what? Being catholic means you close your eyes and pretend poverty and all the things you listed DONT have anything to do with abortion? Like what? Really man? Cmon

 

We need people who can be problem solvers in this world...but people who choose ignorance because "Catholicism is reality". 

Edited July 12, 2014 by CrossCuT

[Basilisa Marie]

What's the real goal? To save souls. What's going to save souls? Getting them to convert and live a Christian life. Is banning contraception going to get them to convert and live a Christian life? 

 

No. People will just find new ways to get what they want. Would making women wear veils in public and banning pork soften your heart to converting to Islam? Of course not, women would protest with heads uncovered and some people would probably get together and create an underground market for pork. Banning the evil thing isn't going to get anyone to change their ways.  If anything it'll harden their hearts to the truth. 

 

People didn't pass laws banning smoking in public areas until people came around to the idea that smoking was bad. A smoking ban would have never worked in the 1950s. Something like banning contraception is just the easy way out of doing the hard work of converting people, if we do it before we've done the hard work of converting people. 

 

Edited July 12, 2014 by Basilisa Marie

[CrossCuT]

Does that mean you feel the same about making abortion illegal? Or is that a special case?

[dairygirl4u2c]

what's so terrible about this debate is that it's merely allowing contraceptives to exist versus banning them.

 

i mean, it's so obviously sinful to me to ban them, as a matter of respect. the harm it does to society is not enough to justify banning them, and people's hearts will not be different anyway if we banned it.

 

plus, it's not like you can't just allow them to use it, it'd reduce unwed pregnancies and abortions. you don't have to tell people to use them, although for noncatholics that's a given. just turn your head and let them do it, it'd prevent all the other social problems. sure, the root of hte problem is the contraceptive mindset to begin with, but given it's not going to go away either way, it's still an empirical fact that they prevent unplannd births and abortions.

 

you don't want to prevent abortions because you are simply unwilling to turn your head? even when turning your head isn't wrongful? that just seems like an other exception where religously based warped ideology infringes upon human life, and common sense. what's sad is this religoius based stuff isn't even necessary to be believed

Edited July 13, 2014 by dairygirl4u2c

[Credo in Deum]

Ok, youre not getting it. What youre saying is true, that if youre a Catholic you believe that reality should be what catholics believe but that is not reality. Reality is abortions happen because women are having a rough time. Youre saying the reasons they get abortions are not good enough because murder is not justified by anything - cool beans. But if youre gonna sit here and tell me that the croutons you listed are not significant problems, then I will say youre daft.

You are literally choosing to ignore the reasons women get abortions and as such you will NEVER solve the problem. You simply wont. Its like somene has a leak in a pipe and its causing their basement to flood...instead of fixing the leak by replacing the pipe you think its better to ignore the hole and wrap paper towels around it. It wont stop the leak...you need to address the HOLE...the actual problem.

Running around spewing your Catholic identity is fine and dandy, but it wont fix the whole either. You have to be realistic and open your eyes to the crummy world we live in so we can fix it. Ignoring it helps no one...and in fact I think that ignorant mentality helps promote abortions by ignoring the real issues.

Am I making sense? Your replies are merely semantics..."everything is Catholicism" "the worlds reality is Catholicism". Yeah I get it. Doesnt change whats going on though. LIke what? Being catholic means you close your eyes and pretend poverty and all the things you listed DONT have anything to do with abortion? Like what? Really man? Cmon

We need people who can be problem solvers in this world...but people who choose ignorance because "Catholicism is reality".

Where in my post did I say I believe rape, incest, poverty, and etc., have nothing to do with abortion? Where in my post did I say these things aren't significant problems?

What did I say? I said these things do not and can not be accepted as things which constitute a NEED for abortions! Just because I don't believe these problems can be considered justification for murder, does not mean I believe these problems aren't significant issues.

I say ban abortions and address the issues like rape, incest, poverty, and etc. but just know CrossCut you're not going to be able to completely eliminate those issues either. In fact the only tool you have which can actually bring about real change and lasting results is your Catholic Faith, provided you LIVE it! St. Mother Theresa lived hers and she helped more people than you and I ever could and she bravely told the UN to rid their countries of abortion! She never said; "wait, and try to understand the reasons for why these people "NEED" an abortion." And do you know why she never said this? It's because there is no reasonable reason for abortions, because sin is UNREASONABLE! There is no reason to wait and think about if we should or shouldn't make abortion illegal. If there is no real NEED for abortions then there is no reason for abortion to be legal.

[CrossCuT]

Ok cook. I think we are essentially saying the same thing. 

 

Living our catholic faith by caring for people who are marginalized, impoverished, lonely, and afraid can all help get rid of the societies need for abortion. Legality in these cases is irrelevant. Im interested in eliminating the source of the problem; the reason people get abortions. 

Edited July 13, 2014 by CrossCuT

[dairygirl4u2c]

so to state explicitly there are two sins in banning contraceptives: one is not respecting the autonomy of the individual, and two is allowing more abortions to occur. and it's not even like 'banning' it is required by the catholic church, so it's more like an ultra-list approach

[Credo in Deum]

so to state explicitly there are two sins in banning contraceptives

Are you for real?

[dairygirl4u2c]

Are you for real?

 

lol

 

yes, yes i am.

 

thus saith the church of dairygirl. to he who opposes, anathema sit.
 

[dairygirl4u2c]

in that 'ends means' 'lesser of two evils' etc, debate going on in this phorum.... i quote a pope saying encouraging words to using contraceptives to lessen STDs etc. he didn't i dont think specifically condone it, but he said it was good that those who did it were trying to be humane, or something like that he said.

it was specifically in regards to homosexual men who use condoms.

if it was that, or a man running around with AIDS without wearing condoms, i'm sure the pope would say the same thing.

 

and, i might even venture there's somehting to be said about his words in general usage of contraceptives. i do acknolwedge it's getting more and more removed from somehting he specific did refer to, but the logic is still applicable.

 

that pope, much like most who respond to those more extreme hypotheticals, seem to be wanting to not specifically encourage condoms, but also you don't see them discouraging them. they basically say 'there's somehting to be said about it' and then turn a blind eye to it. i would almost surely hands down guess that that pope and others would not encourage someone to discourage condom use, at least in those extreme situations. they would probbaly say it's a bad idea, in fact, to discourage it.

would it be a sin to discourage it? most would probably say no, but not me. it's clearly a sin. i can see keeping silent on it, but not discouraging it. that's just going too far

[CatholicsAreKewl]

What's the real goal? To save souls. What's going to save souls? Getting them to convert and live a Christian life. Is banning contraception going to get them to convert and live a Christian life? 

 

No. People will just find new ways to get what they want. Would making women wear veils in public and banning pork soften your heart to converting to Islam? Of course not, women would protest with heads uncovered and some people would probably get together and create an underground market for pork. Banning the evil thing isn't going to get anyone to change their ways.  If anything it'll harden their hearts to the truth. 

 

People didn't pass laws banning smoking in public areas until people came around to the idea that smoking was bad. A smoking ban would have never worked in the 1950s. Something like banning contraception is just the easy way out of doing the hard work of converting people, if we do it before we've done the hard work of converting people. 

 

 

Interesting points. Would you say it's not neccesarily immoral to prohibit contraceptions, but it wouldn't solve the root problem? 

[Basilisa Marie]

Does that mean you feel the same about making abortion illegal? Or is that a special case?

 

I have much less of a problem with making abortion illegal because in that case, we're actually talking about killing people, so there's a special kind of urgency associated with it. Though I also think that changing peoples' minds, working to change the culture and change their hearts, working to make it much easier for people to choose life (especially in cases where abortion seems attractive, like in the case of young, impoverished single mothers) is what's going to constitute our "long game" effort. Making stuff illegal is a band-aid, changing the culture is administering a cure. 

[Basilisa Marie]

Interesting points. Would you say it's not neccesarily immoral to prohibit contraceptions, but it wouldn't solve the root problem? 

 

Correct, though I'd say it's important to remember that many women use the chemicals in the pill to treat medical problems that would otherwise prevent them from leading a "normal" life (holding down a job, etc), so I think any ban would have to account for that. Banning contraception wouldn't be much more than a hollow victory. 

[Blackwagonman]

The interesting part about this debate is that contraception(s) created many of the problems we currently debating and facing in our society.  Once contraceptives were legalized and people felt educated that they could have sex outside of wedlock with no consequences a seed was planted.  Those seeds have grown into giant trees and have born fruit and the fruit ain't pretty...

 

Contraception was created to stop a normal bodily process and disassociate the sexual act from the natural consequences of love making, children.  It is an illusion though as every act has a consequence.  The pill for instance has some very serious side effects including cancer, stroke, clotting issues and even sterility after prolonged use.  How about the societal consequences of allowing people to view and use one another for their own personal pleasure.  This point alone can account for the explosion of affairs, divorce, STD's (no protection via the pill, IUD, depo, etc and condoms have a 14% fail rate at the bare minimum), suicide, depression, abortion, single parent family units, etc. etc. etc.

 

Offering contraceptives by it's very nature encourages people to have sex.  Therefore further promoting and continuing to grow the rotten fruit that contraceptives have already produced.  The Catholic Church predicted all of these consequences back in the early 1900's and rightfully she has taken a hard line stand against contraceptives.  Honestly, if as a society we banned contraceptives we would all be better off, however people don't want to see or hear the truth.   

 

This is why I firmly stand with and support the church in saying that contraceptives are a grave evil for the person taking them and the rest of society. 

 

 

[dairygirl4u2c]

i stand by banning contraceptives given it'd cause more unplanned pregnancies and abortions. i understand the root cause issue, but it's still a fact of life, the results i'm describing.

 

this is also for practical purposes, not just ideology.

 

but with that said, looking at practical results alone, i might be open to the idea, that banning unwed sex along with contraception would cause unplanned preg and abortions to go down. i doubt this is the case given people would just do it anyway. and it'd probaby cause more abortions and such given the lack of good birth control etc.