Is It Moral To Make Contraception Illegal?

[CrossCuT]

Ok cook. I think we are essentially saying the same thing. 

 

Living our catholic faith by caring for people who are marginalized, impoverished, lonely, and afraid can all help get rid of the societies need for abortion. Legality in these cases is irrelevant. Im interested in eliminating the source of the problem; the reason people get abortions. 

Edited July 13, 2014 by CrossCuT

[dairygirl4u2c]

so to state explicitly there are two sins in banning contraceptives: one is not respecting the autonomy of the individual, and two is allowing more abortions to occur. and it's not even like 'banning' it is required by the catholic church, so it's more like an ultra-list approach

[Credo in Deum]

so to state explicitly there are two sins in banning contraceptives

Are you for real?

[dairygirl4u2c]

Are you for real?

 

lol

 

yes, yes i am.

 

thus saith the church of dairygirl. to he who opposes, anathema sit.
 

[dairygirl4u2c]

in that 'ends means' 'lesser of two evils' etc, debate going on in this phorum.... i quote a pope saying encouraging words to using contraceptives to lessen STDs etc. he didn't i dont think specifically condone it, but he said it was good that those who did it were trying to be humane, or something like that he said.

it was specifically in regards to homosexual men who use condoms.

if it was that, or a man running around with AIDS without wearing condoms, i'm sure the pope would say the same thing.

 

and, i might even venture there's somehting to be said about his words in general usage of contraceptives. i do acknolwedge it's getting more and more removed from somehting he specific did refer to, but the logic is still applicable.

 

that pope, much like most who respond to those more extreme hypotheticals, seem to be wanting to not specifically encourage condoms, but also you don't see them discouraging them. they basically say 'there's somehting to be said about it' and then turn a blind eye to it. i would almost surely hands down guess that that pope and others would not encourage someone to discourage condom use, at least in those extreme situations. they would probbaly say it's a bad idea, in fact, to discourage it.

would it be a sin to discourage it? most would probably say no, but not me. it's clearly a sin. i can see keeping silent on it, but not discouraging it. that's just going too far

[CatholicsAreKewl]

What's the real goal? To save souls. What's going to save souls? Getting them to convert and live a Christian life. Is banning contraception going to get them to convert and live a Christian life? 

 

No. People will just find new ways to get what they want. Would making women wear veils in public and banning pork soften your heart to converting to Islam? Of course not, women would protest with heads uncovered and some people would probably get together and create an underground market for pork. Banning the evil thing isn't going to get anyone to change their ways.  If anything it'll harden their hearts to the truth. 

 

People didn't pass laws banning smoking in public areas until people came around to the idea that smoking was bad. A smoking ban would have never worked in the 1950s. Something like banning contraception is just the easy way out of doing the hard work of converting people, if we do it before we've done the hard work of converting people. 

 

 

Interesting points. Would you say it's not neccesarily immoral to prohibit contraceptions, but it wouldn't solve the root problem? 

[Basilisa Marie]

Does that mean you feel the same about making abortion illegal? Or is that a special case?

 

I have much less of a problem with making abortion illegal because in that case, we're actually talking about killing people, so there's a special kind of urgency associated with it. Though I also think that changing peoples' minds, working to change the culture and change their hearts, working to make it much easier for people to choose life (especially in cases where abortion seems attractive, like in the case of young, impoverished single mothers) is what's going to constitute our "long game" effort. Making stuff illegal is a band-aid, changing the culture is administering a cure. 

[Basilisa Marie]

Interesting points. Would you say it's not neccesarily immoral to prohibit contraceptions, but it wouldn't solve the root problem? 

 

Correct, though I'd say it's important to remember that many women use the chemicals in the pill to treat medical problems that would otherwise prevent them from leading a "normal" life (holding down a job, etc), so I think any ban would have to account for that. Banning contraception wouldn't be much more than a hollow victory. 

[Blackwagonman]

The interesting part about this debate is that contraception(s) created many of the problems we currently debating and facing in our society.  Once contraceptives were legalized and people felt educated that they could have sex outside of wedlock with no consequences a seed was planted.  Those seeds have grown into giant trees and have born fruit and the fruit ain't pretty...

 

Contraception was created to stop a normal bodily process and disassociate the sexual act from the natural consequences of love making, children.  It is an illusion though as every act has a consequence.  The pill for instance has some very serious side effects including cancer, stroke, clotting issues and even sterility after prolonged use.  How about the societal consequences of allowing people to view and use one another for their own personal pleasure.  This point alone can account for the explosion of affairs, divorce, STD's (no protection via the pill, IUD, depo, etc and condoms have a 14% fail rate at the bare minimum), suicide, depression, abortion, single parent family units, etc. etc. etc.

 

Offering contraceptives by it's very nature encourages people to have sex.  Therefore further promoting and continuing to grow the rotten fruit that contraceptives have already produced.  The Catholic Church predicted all of these consequences back in the early 1900's and rightfully she has taken a hard line stand against contraceptives.  Honestly, if as a society we banned contraceptives we would all be better off, however people don't want to see or hear the truth.   

 

This is why I firmly stand with and support the church in saying that contraceptives are a grave evil for the person taking them and the rest of society. 

 

 

[dairygirl4u2c]

i stand by banning contraceptives given it'd cause more unplanned pregnancies and abortions. i understand the root cause issue, but it's still a fact of life, the results i'm describing.

 

this is also for practical purposes, not just ideology.

 

but with that said, looking at practical results alone, i might be open to the idea, that banning unwed sex along with contraception would cause unplanned preg and abortions to go down. i doubt this is the case given people would just do it anyway. and it'd probaby cause more abortions and such given the lack of good birth control etc.

[Blackwagonman]

Almost forgot ... In regards to the pill for deabilitating medical issues.  How often would your doctor perscribed pregnancy to solve your medical problem?   Your a teenage girl with acne, aww go get pregnant your acne will go away.  Heavy or irregular cycles, aww go get pregnant.  The point is that birth control pills make the body believe its pregnant, which only masks the underlying problem not cure it. 

 

This is one of the other great travesties that birth control has propegated within the medical community and it has very negative implications for women.  Most Doctors don't take the time to find the root cause of many of these deabilitating issues women face.  Instead, they have simply been trained to perscribe birth control.  Not having birth control pills at your doctors finger tips would remove the temporary fix and force them to actually find out and address the underlying causes of these medical issues. 

[Blackwagonman]

Ahh the "people are just going to do it anyways" argument.  Are people mindless animals that have no control over their faculties?  Let me use your logic on another topic, we should give all depressed patients cyanide pills because they are going to kill themselves anyways.  We would be doing a benefit to society if these people died quickly and quietly.  I mean think about the clean up cost or the medical costs associated with treating there condition.  We would all be better off if we just gave depressed people cyanide pills. 

 

People are not mindless animals, we are created in God's image.  When we are faced with real consequences and supported with resources and education that encourages good decisions people generally make good decisions.  Abstinence training which is something our government banned empowers, supports and encourages good and potentially life saving decisions.  Handing out free condoms does nothing of the sort and in fact it ensures an infection rate of at least 14% or higher in AIDS ridden areas due to their failure.  Just think about this financially ... a 14% percent return on your savings account.  The numbers add up really fast.  Then consider this who pays for all of the condoms that are being made?  I can tell you someone is getting rich off of "free" condoms.  What happens when the money to produce condoms in third world countries dries up?

 

A counter point would be who gets paid on abstinence training?  What happens if the money dries up in this scenario?  People deserve to be empowered and treated with diginity.  The question is how does giving people "free" condoms and saying "you are going to do it anyways" diginified or empowering?   You should look up AIDS infection rates in Islamic areas.  Why do you think they are so low?  Do you think every islamic child is given a whole bunch of sex education and a lifetime supply of condoms or pills when they hit puberty?  

 

The Catholic alternative of abstinence training empowers people, supports good decision making and marriage (monogomy) and is totally sustainable even with no monetary funds.  Then instead of spending millions on condoms here and or abroad we could put that money towards more education and or medical supplies (medicine, equipment, etc.).  Seems pretty good to me...

 

[Perigrina]

Of course it is moral to make contraceptives illegal.  Contraceptives are intrinsically immoral.  This is straight-forward.

 

However, it is theoretically possible for it also to be moral for them to be legal.  There are some circumstances under which is it moral to tolerate an evil.  This is a more complicated question and the more interesting one to discuss.  Are we in circumstances under which we ought to tolerate the evil of contraception?

[Lilllabettt]

Ok cook. I think we are essentially saying the same thing. 

 

Living our catholic faith by caring for people who are marginalized, impoverished, lonely, and afraid can all help get rid of the societies need for abortion. Legality in these cases is irrelevant. Im interested in eliminating the source of the problem; the reason people get abortions. 

 

 

500 years from now, the world has achieved an abortion rate of zero. 

No woman ever gets an abortion, ever.

The law still says that preterm human beings are not real people and have no rights.

Is that law irrelevant?

 

500 years from now, the world has achieved racial equality. 

White and black are in actual practice equal in every respect.

Would it matter if in the United States Jim Crow laws were still on the books? 

Or if slavery were still legal?

Lets say the law says black people are not real people and can be owned.

Does it matter? If in practice everyone is equal? 

 

Yes. It does. It's the principle of the thing. The principle matters. The law matters especially much because legal principle poisons the well.  In a nation of laws, bad law ruins the nation. People cannot live in a country that legally institutionalizes discrimination and be unspoiled by it. Nature shudders.

[Socrates]

Moral, yes.

Whether pushing for a contraception ban would be feasible or prudent in current America is another question.

 

I definitely think that if, say, a highly religious town, wanted to have a local law prohibiting sale of contraceptives, it should be allowed to do so.  (As Ave Maria, FL tried to do.)  Such matters should be decided at the local level, rather than by federal courts.

 

Up into the 1960s, many states still had laws against contraceptives on the books (though mostly unenforced), and somehow that did not lead to an apocalyptic situation.  All such laws were struck down by the Supreme Court on the grounds of "privacy,' in a decision that was the immediate precedent to Roe vs. Wade, which declared abortion a "constitutional right."

[Socrates]

Ok cook. I think we are essentially saying the same thing. 

 

Living our catholic faith by caring for people who are marginalized, impoverished, lonely, and afraid can all help get rid of the societies need for abortion. Legality in these cases is irrelevant. Im interested in eliminating the source of the problem; the reason people get abortions. 

 

Justice demands that the law protect the lives of all human beings, not just some - and especially the lives of those most helpless and vulnerable.

 

You might as well say that the legality of all murder or theft or rape is irrelevant, and that we should get rid of laws against those things, and instead try to create a world in which no one would ever feel a need to murder or steal or rape.

 

Of course, the sober reality is that in this fallen world, people unfortunately will always be tempted to do evil things - and will in fact do them, regardless of how good things are in society.

 

Of course, we should be working to help women with difficult pregnancies and such, and do all we can to help them make the right choice. No one denies that. But in a fallen world, there will always be cases in which killing the baby is the easier choice - just as sometimes murder of other persons or theft may seem the easier or more appealing choice, despite the penalty of law.

 

The idea that abortion will just go away if only we elect enough liberal politicians or spend enough money on social programs is a utopian fantasy with no basis in reality.  

Vast increases in federal social programs and spending since the Great Society legislation in the '60s did nothing to eliminate or reduce abortions - whose rates soared afterwards.

[The Hierophant]

By the kind of logic I see in this thread, it would be moral to make fornication, adultery, and lying illegal.  The police state would know no limits.

[PhuturePriest]

We'll never, ever, ever, get abortion illegal. 

 

*Gasp* How could you say such a scandalous thing? the typical pro-lifer asks.

 

Because changing things on the legal front won't do a thing if we don't change anything on the cultural front. Economically and socially speaking, there is a need for abortion. There are many young, unmarried women with no prospects in life who get pregnant and the guy leaves them all alone. They have no other choice but to have an abortion. What is the solution, then? Give them another choice. Outnumber the amount of Planned Parenthoods with crisis pregnancy centers by 10, make adoption less expensive and easier to be done, and there will no longer be a need for abortion. Change people's hearts and convince them abortion is wrong. That is the only way we can conceivably get rid of abortion, and until people realize that and act on it, abortion will continue, and pro-lifers will be sitting around asking people to sign petitions until the end of time, wondering why nothing is changing.

[Credo in Deum]

We'll never, ever, ever, get abortion illegal. 

 

*Gasp* How could you say such a scandalous thing? the typical pro-lifer asks.

 

Because changing things on the legal front won't do a thing if we don't change anything on the cultural front. Economically and socially speaking, there is a need for abortion. There are many young, unmarried women with no prospects in life who get pregnant and the guy leaves them all alone. They have no other choice but to have an abortion. What is the solution, then? Give them another choice. Outnumber the amount of Planned Parenthoods with crisis pregnancy centers by 10, make adoption less expensive and easier to be done, and there will no longer be a need for abortion. Change people's hearts and convince them abortion is wrong. That is the only way we can conceivably get rid of abortion, and until people realize that and act on it, abortion will continue, and pro-lifers will be sitting around asking people to sign petitions until the end of time, wondering why nothing is changing.

 

I wonder if we should take this approach with other crimes against humanity like death camps, genocide, and etc?

[Perigrina]

By the kind of logic I see in this thread, it would be moral to make fornication, adultery, and lying illegal.  The police state would know no limits.

 

 

It is moral to make those things illegal, just not necessarily prudent.