Why Does The Church Oppose Magic And What Counts As Magic?

[mortify ii]

Ah, I think you hit on something by accident here. It is quite possible that such rituals, tapping somehow into a primordial facet of the human experience, are indeed naturally effective at showing some spiritual benefit. But inasmuch as they are properly natural, they cannot in themselves be salvific. They cannot in themselves bring a man to the Faith. They cannot in themselves confer grace.

Faith, grace, salvation, are supernatural. That is why pagan rituals are in vain, and false religions 'worship' ineffectively. At best they can more or less correspond with the natural human desire for God. What they can never do is in any way correspond with the supernatural. To do so would be for them to do nothing less than accept the Truth of the Catholic Church.

 

Well my brother, as I said I don't understand it and can't explain it, but men and women who gathered at the foot of of a Naksibendi Shaykh did advance spiritually, and miracles occurred to prove that God's favor was bestowed. The "how" I can't explain and it boggles my mind to this very day. The explanation I'm leaning towards is that the esoteric is beyond exoteric doctrines and practices, and that a realm is reached that brings one closer to our own Faith. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Well my brother, as I said I don't understand it and can't explain it, but men and women who gathered at the foot of of a Naksibendi Shaykh did advance spiritually, and miracles occurred to prove that God's favor was bestowed. The "how" I can't explain and it boggles my mind to this very day. The explanation I'm leaning towards is that the esoteric is beyond exoteric doctrines and practices, and that a realm is reached that brings one closer to our own Faith. 

Which is more important to you: your experience in the rituals and practices of a false religion, or the teachings of the only true religion which you profess?

[The Hierophant]

I don't personally have anything positive to say about magic. Probably the most esteemed Western magician of the 20th century was Crowley and he ended up a penniless lunatic with a bad drug habit. So I am not trying to justify anything about magic.

 

I do think it's curious that Balthasar, a cardinal, would praise a book in defense of a Catholic Hermeticism. I'll have to take a look at the afterword myself and see what he says.

[ChristianGirlForever]

Well my brother, as I said I don't understand it and can't explain it, but men and women who gathered at the foot of of a Naksibendi Shaykh did advance spiritually, and miracles occurred to prove that God's favor was bestowed. The "how" I can't explain and it boggles my mind to this very day. The explanation I'm leaning towards is that the esoteric is beyond exoteric doctrines and practices, and that a realm is reached that brings one closer to our own Faith.

How do you know that these so-called miracles came from God? A great way for the devil to lead people away from the Church is to make this sort of thing look as if God is smiling down on it. Why could not the devil have caused these "miraculous happenings" in order that more Christians might go over to that side?

[beatitude]

How do you know that these so-called miracles came from God? A great way for the devil to lead people away from the Church is to make this sort of thing look as if God is smiling down on it. Why could not the devil have caused these "miraculous happenings" in order that more Christians might go over to that side?

 

This is not necessarily the case. I know people of other religions who are very devout in their prayer and who strive to live good lives and be close to God, and while I think they're mistaken in their theology, I don't think a loving God looks at them and goes, "Hmm, wrong religion, so I won't be giving comfort to your cancer-stricken twin sister, kthanxbai." God is generous and good, and there are many converts to Christianity who are able to identify his kindness and the working of his hands in their life long before they became Christian. But trying to do magic is distinct from praying, for reasons that have already been discussed, and I don't see how anything but harm can come out of the occult.

[Credo in Deum]

Magic is a lie.  Lying is a sin.  The Church is opposed to sin. 

[Basilisa Marie]

Dude, this thread. 

[Credo in Deum]

http://youtu.be/DTfwwbsRopM

[Nihil Obstat]

Dude, this thread. 

Yet another hard-hitting take-no-prisoners victory by Nihil Obstat.

 

http://youtu.be/1npWhzBJAzA

 

Edited July 15, 2014 by Nihil Obstat

[CrossCuT]

that video....mind blown. that is all.

[truthfinder]

Um wow, I think that video would have been useful when the US was doing LSD experiments.  

[Nihil Obstat]

Um wow, I think that video would have been useful when the US was doing LSD experiments.  

[truthfinder]

 

Um wow, I think that video would have been useful when the US was doing LSD experiments.  

 

Have you read about the Good Friday LSD experiments?

[mortify ii]

Mort's lesson on the Tarot coming to a local CCD class near you

 

;)

[The Hierophant]

I'm not so sure we should celebrate.  Let's think of the answers:

 

- Magic has an attitude of control and expectation, prayer supplication.  Originally I gave this some credence, but I want to partially retract that.  It is certainly true that many magicians who practice "theurgy" have an attitude of expectation, but so do many people praying the Rosary or Chaplet; we do not call the latter people magicians.  Moreover, some of what comes out in "theurgy" appears to be a devotional practice.

 

- Magic is wrong because it isn't right worship.  But that says something about magic, but doesn't get at the question of what magic is.  We could just as easily say that Catholic prayers are magic and that it is permitted magic.

 

If ritualism isn't the distinguishing characteristic of magic - as prayers many prayers are also quite formulaic and ritualistic - then I don't think we have a good answer.  So perhaps we could say the following:  'magic' is used in two senses, and the sense it is used in the Catechism is too narrow to encompass much of what is called "theurgy".  Those aspects of "theurgy" not covered by 'magic' in this sense of the word would be more properly called wrong worship.  In which case the question becomes - why, if it calls upon the God of Christians, would it be wrong worship?

 

A final possibility is that some of what esotericists call magic is actually not prohibited - it doesn't fall under the rubric of magic as 'magic' is used by catechists and is not wrong worship.  I'll admit that may be a very tiny sliver of Western esotericism, since much of it is also mucked with paganism, but there might be something to preserve here:  perhaps that's why Balthasar was so impressed with this Meditations on the Tarot, JPII had a copy of the German two-volume edition on his desk, and Ratzinger reportedly authorized a Russian edition (need more detail on this last point).

[mortify ii]

I would say aspects of the Liturgy appear more "magickal" rather than prayer

[The Hierophant]

I wanted to avoid the liturgy to avoid scandal, but yes, the liturgy could easily be seen as a public act of high ceremonial magic, albeit one whose method is of divine origin and has been given a divine guarantee.

[Nihil Obstat]

Have you read about the Good Friday LSD experiments?

Hm... no I have not! I have read about some of the MKUltra stuff, but not this. Reading now.

 

I would say aspects of the Liturgy appear more "magickal" rather than prayer

I would say that this is probably blasphemous.

[Benedictus]

I wanted to avoid the liturgy to avoid scandal, but yes, the liturgy could easily be seen as a public act of high ceremonial magic, albeit one whose method is of divine origin and has been given a divine guarantee.

 

It isn't just about semantics IMHO. Magic isn't necessarily about deity, actually a large part of it isn't about that at all. Magic, in general terms, uses ritual, symbol, gestures etc to seek to control, harvest or direct change in the world (or beyond) directly. This makes sense if we take into account many traditions believe in using natural energies or spiritual forces to determine speicific outcomes. In many traditions it's about getting the knowledge and expertise to do this, which may or may not seek out deities, ascended beings or spirits as an aid to acheive this. But the power is usually with the peron doing the magic, unlike prayer.  Users attempt to fine tune the practices or techniques to cultivate better results. It could, depending on the use, include psychological techniques (plus work on ones own psyche) and other hidden means of exerting ones will in a specific environment. Traditions that use magic virtually always mean it in a diffeent way to prayer, especially if we compare it with Christian prayer and worship.

Prayer in very different. It's more about the interior. It's about petition, supplications, affirmation and communion (cultivating relationship). These elements are also present in the mass. It's a process of seeking divine connection, a deeper reliance and relationship. It's not about outcomes or techniques as the aim. Performing acts also doesn't bind God. He isn't influenced or forced to act on our bidding. He doesn't reward someone for doing a ritual a specific way. He goes into their hearts with his spirit and works there! This is different, depending on the tradition, to how magic is used.

If anyone is doing 'special' spiritual things (I'm being general here) aside from what is already set out within the church then I have to ask why and their intentions.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Benedictus

[Basilisa Marie]

I'm not so sure we should celebrate.  Let's think of the answers:

 

- Magic has an attitude of control and expectation, prayer supplication.  Originally I gave this some credence, but I want to partially retract that.  It is certainly true that many magicians who practice "theurgy" have an attitude of expectation, but so do many people praying the Rosary or Chaplet; we do not call the latter people magicians.  Moreover, some of what comes out in "theurgy" appears to be a devotional practice.

 

- Magic is wrong because it isn't right worship.  But that says something about magic, but doesn't get at the question of what magic is.  We could just as easily say that Catholic prayers are magic and that it is permitted magic.

 

If ritualism isn't the distinguishing characteristic of magic - as prayers many prayers are also quite formulaic and ritualistic - then I don't think we have a good answer.  So perhaps we could say the following:  'magic' is used in two senses, and the sense it is used in the Catechism is too narrow to encompass much of what is called "theurgy".  Those aspects of "theurgy" not covered by 'magic' in this sense of the word would be more properly called wrong worship.  In which case the question becomes - why, if it calls upon the God of Christians, would it be wrong worship?

 

A final possibility is that some of what esotericists call magic is actually not prohibited - it doesn't fall under the rubric of magic as 'magic' is used by catechists and is not wrong worship.  I'll admit that may be a very tiny sliver of Western esotericism, since much of it is also mucked with paganism, but there might be something to preserve here:  perhaps that's why Balthasar was so impressed with this Meditations on the Tarot, JPII had a copy of the German two-volume edition on his desk, and Ratzinger reportedly authorized a Russian edition (need more detail on this last point).

 

Ok, but seriously, why bother insisting that in a very specific, particular circumstance it's okay to play with tarot cards? What's really the point? Any benefit that can come from it seems to me to be mitigated by the much greater potential for an occasion of sin or scandal. And willingly placing yourself in an occasion of sin can be sinful in itself, so... I'm having a hard time trying to figure out where the good is? 

 

There are some similarities between magic and religion, sure. Both involve humans interacting with the supernatural. It comes down to how you define magic. If you're going to define magic as any kind of supernatural "stuff" then yeah, religion is a kind of magic. But that's not how the Church defines magic. 

We can't just worship however we want. God has revealed that he wants us to worship in specific ways, and has done so since the very beginning of salvation history. You get special sanctifying grace from the sacraments, but for the sacraments to be valid you have to use the right words and the right tools. Frankly, dealing with the supernatural is serious and dangerous stuff, so through the Church God gives us ways to do it that won't cause us harm. We're totally ill-equipped to deal with anything supernatural without the guidance of the Church.