CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Also Id like to be clear in that I do NOT support abortion. Most the context in which I speak is simply pro-choice where birth control is concerned. And despite popular belief on this site, birth control is not an abortifacient. Abortifacients are abortifacients. DOG PILE! PS like I have said in previous debates, if one wants to rid the world of abortion, you dont make it illegal. I mean...you CAN, but it wont really do much. Despite whatever ideological, philisophical gains that infers, abortions will still happen. You need to remove the need for abortions; ei help those impoverished, rebuild families, help those with additictions etc etc etc etc. And I have no energy to argue over the "CrossCut you beautiful rogue, there is no such thing as a need for abortions!" Yeah ok. Tell that to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 And despite popular belief on this site, birth control is not an abortifacient. Abortifacients are abortifacients. How do you define the beginning of pregnancy, implantation or fertilization? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Many who state that forms of birth control such as the Pill are not abortifacients is because they incorrectly define beginning of pregnancy at implantation, rather than fertilization. Edited July 31, 2014 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Birth control acts to prevent ovulation so fertilization never occurs. Or at least shouldnt occur. Nothing is perfect, not even birth control. :) Edited July 31, 2014 by CrossCuT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Also Id like to be clear in that I do NOT support abortion. Most the context in which I speak is simply pro-choice where birth control is concerned. And despite popular belief on this site, birth control is not an abortifacient. Abortifacients are abortifacients. We've been through this before I think. The literature is mixed. If there are about 4 studies that say it might prevent implantation of an fertilized egg and 5 a little more recent studies that say there's no evidence of that this occurs I don't see how it's reasonable to make the leap that hormonal birth control absolutely doesn't ever prevent implantation of a new human organism. The fact that there is evidence that it might cause a hostile environment for the new life is enough reason to warrant caution, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 True, but I also dont think that the general air of disdain and loathing from the Catholic side that they hold against those who use birth control are very justified either. It is a very personal decision and there is no all encompassing reasons one women chooses to use where one chooses not to. There have been many people on here who have referred to those couples who use contraception in their normal sex life as being abhorrent. I think intention is vital to the use of Birth control if one is going to deem it as unholy or some ish..and THAT is too personal for any of us to comment on or have any knowledge of. But again you can say "Oh beautiful CrossCut you silly kumbaya lover the road to hell is paved with good intentions!" So? I personally hate that phrase tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 But again you can say "Oh beautiful CrossCut you silly kumbaya lover the road to hell is paved with good intentions!" So? I personally hate that phrase tbh. What about this one? "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah that one is cool beans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Cool. Because it expresses the same sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I dont really think so. When the other says the road to hell is paved with good intentions...that doesnt really tell me anything. Should I second guess every good intention I ever had? Should I try not to have good intentions lest it leads me to hell? Its just a dumb phrase imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I don't like that phrase either cross-cut. God can see the heart. I don't think good intentions ever justify an objectively evil or bad act, but I believe God can see our hearts and He is merciful. The problem is when people take that concept to implicitly condone something bad because people may have their hearts in the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I dont really think so. When the other says the road to hell is paved with good intentions...that doesnt really tell me anything. Should I second guess every good intention I ever had? Should I try not to have good intentions lest it leads me to hell? Its just a dumb phrase imo. That is not really what it means though. It means that intentions alone are not enough. Just like paying lip service to God ("Lord, Lord") is not enough. Our 'good intentions' and our mere words are not enough. They must be backed up by doing the will of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Cool. Because it expresses the same sentiment. I don't really think so either. I'm not a biblical scholar, but that phrase can refer to a number of other things. For example, those who call Jesus Lord but whose actions do not align with the will of God and whose heart has a stronger desire for things contrary to Him would fit the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I don't like that phrase either cross-cut. God can see the heart. I don't think good intentions ever justify an objectively evil or bad act, but I believe God can see our hearts and He is merciful. The problem is when people take that concept to implicitly condone something bad because people may have their hearts in the right place. I honestly do not believe that birth control is an inherently bad thing at all so I dont think that I am trying to twist the good intention card to justify or condone a bad practice. Especially when people make the argument that birth control = objectification. That I have to completely disagree with on the notion that you have no idea what intentions are in someones heart. I dont think there is anything that can objectively make someone objectify; its all about intention and predisposition...not a hormone pill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 That is not really what it means though. It means that intentions alone are not enough. Just like paying lip service to God ("Lord, Lord") is not enough. Our 'good intentions' and our mere words are not enough. They must be backed up by doing the will of God. I agree with you that actions and words should match up. But I dont think that they are mutually exclusive...if that makes sense. Even if person A does something that person B views as wrong doesnt mean that the action is wrong. It has a lot to do with A's intentions, disposition, knowledge, etc etc etc. Not only that, but if the very nature of the action is misunderstood by both parties it becomes even harder to come to a conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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