Is It A God Given Right To Teminate A Pregnancy

[Socrates]

Also Id like to be clear in that I do NOT support abortion. Most the context in which I speak is simply pro-choice where birth control is concerned.

And despite popular belief on this site, birth control is not an abortifacient. Abortifacients are abortifacients. 

 

DOG PILE!

 

 

 

 

 

Freedom of choice does not entail that others must be forced to pay for your choices.

 

And some of the "contraceptive" drugs the Obamare mandate requires be covered are in fact abortificacients, or sometimes act as abortifacients.  (Though the Supreme Court ruled that closely held companies need not cover those abortifacient drugs.)

 

PS like I have said in previous debates, if one wants to rid the world of abortion, you dont make it illegal. I mean...you CAN, but it wont really do much. Despite whatever ideological, philisophical gains that infers, abortions will still happen. You need to remove the need for abortions; ei help those impoverished, rebuild families, help those with additictions etc etc etc etc. 

And I have no energy to argue over the "CrossCut you beautiful rogue, there is no such thing as a need for abortions!" Yeah ok. Tell that to reality. 

 

I've already answered all those objections in another thread, so I won't rehash them all again here.

 

Again, is there ever a need to kill children already born?  The same situations of poverty, etc. exist in cases where children are already born.  The only difference is that the children are outside the womb.

 

 

 

Birth control acts to prevent ovulation so fertilization never occurs. Or at least shouldnt occur. Nothing is perfect, not even birth control. :)

 

So why take the risk of possibly killing human life?  It's playing Russian roulette.

 

(Though, of course, the smiley makes this issue so happy and fun.)

[BG45]

Back home, the Rachel's Vineyard program met 3 weekends of the month for those trying to heal from an abortion. The fourth was for those suffering through a miscarriage. Our miscarriage group had one guy whose ex-wife had an abortion without his knowledge. He had been in the other group, but his anger levels got him kicked out. He had a lot of the same anger and sorrow issues that we did.

 

I have a friend we'll call B. who once had a girlfriend get pregnant.  She told him he would drive her to the abortion clinic in Pittsburgh, or she would dump him, as well as claim it was rape.  (She dumped him after anyhow.)  He tried to talk her out of the decision the entire way there and was crying as she walked in and told him to wait on the sidewalk.  He crawled into the bottle for years after that in his grief, and even after having been sober for years when telling the story, he was still breaking down and crying for his child that she never gave a chance to live.

[CrossCuT]

Again, is there ever a need to kill children already born?  The same situations of poverty, etc. exist in cases where children are already born.  The only difference is that the children are outside the womb.

 

I just find it a huge stumbling block when Catholics grapple with the word "need" in this situation. The need for abortion. It seems that we need to discuss this before getting to the meat of the matter. 

 

Do you understand why I say need? Do you understand why women get abortions? Do you think they do it with the intention "I want to kill my child." No, of course not!

 

The reasons are "I cannot afford another child" "I cannot emotionally handle my personal relationships"  etc. The reasons are real life reasons. Please do not take my explanation as a justification, it is not. I am not in any way trying to justify having an abortion. I am merely trying to reach out and understand why they happen. 

 

That is how logical problem solving works. You find the cause of a problem, eliminate the cause, and you wont have your problem anymore. People are so focused on the legality of the issue. That wont do poo to help save the babies. Abortions will still happen because we never addressed the need.

 

I mean sure, if you can get abortion banned thats totes fine. But youll STILL have to eliminate the need if you want them to stop. You can object all you want and run in circles, but at the end of the day, you have to eliminate the need. 

[Ice_nine]

 

Do you understand why I say need? Do you understand why women get abortions? Do you think they do it with the intention "I want to kill my child." No, of course not!

 

Let's not paint women as a monolith. So yes there are some women who undoubtedly want to kill their children and use abortion out of purely selfish/sadistic reasons. 1-4% of the population are sociopaths after all.

[CrossCuT]

Let's not paint women as a monolith. So yes there are some women who undoubtedly want to kill their children and use abortion out of purely selfish/sadistic reasons. 1-4% of the population are sociopaths after all.

 

Sure, but Im not talking about them. They are in a category all their own. If someone wants to kill then it doesnt matter if its abortion or stabbing their neighbor in the throat. They exist in the realm of extreme mental disorder.

[Ice_nine]

Still women are not monolithic. Some women want to kill their children, or are utterly indifferent to them. Some people get abortions for purely selfish reasons. Some women who are well-off economically get abortions, and feel not a smidge of guilt. Not necessarily sociopaths, I was just using that as an example to explain why you can't say women feel x and y because there are many women who consider and have abortions and there are thousands of reasons why they do that aren't limited to poverty/abuse etc.

 

 

[CrossCuT]

I feel like if you want to kill someone and have no smidge of guilt about it means that there is definitely something wrong with you. 

 

So what is your point? That you dont think eliminating the need with help reduce abortions? because there is a very small fraction of insane women out there who get a thrill from killing their children?

[KnightofChrist]

Many of the mothers who abort their children more than likely have fallen for the lie, or even convince themselves of the lie against reason that their child within them is not a person, not a human being. So they don't believe a person dies as a result but only that they have removed tissue, blob of cells, some THING unwanted etc.

 

Most people will not murder other people. But if there is a powerful enough movement to convince a group of people that another group of people are not persons, and redefines that group into non-human objects who are a burden, it becomes easier.

 

 

[CrossCuT]

Right. But do you think making abortion illegal will acheive the goal of convincing them there is a human inside? Even if the courts say "Hey this is how it is" do you think that women will stop?

 

My point is that all the other lingering reasons still exist so women will seek it as a remedy. We need to eliminate those reasons and educate.

[KnightofChrist]

Right. But do you think making abortion illegal will acheive the goal of convincing them there is a human inside? Even if the courts say "Hey this is how it is" do you think that women will stop?

 

My point is that all the other lingering reasons still exist so women will seek it as a remedy. We need to eliminate those reasons and educate.

 

Do you believe making slavery illegal, related Constitutional Amendments and Civil Right Acts helped achieve the goal of convincing most people that black people are human? Do you think most people stopped enslaving blacks when the courts stated "hey this is how it is"?

 

People made up rationalizations to enslave other people during the time of slavery in the United States. Should the United States have waited until the 'need' for slavery was remedied to have it outlawed and condemned?

 

Still, the slave trade in the United States still exist, people still find 'need' for it should it not be illegal on that bases?

 

I believe if someone were to ask you to help convince them that a black person is human there are likely two fields of secular authority on the matter you would point to, science and law. 

 

In other words to answer your question. Yes, I do believe it would help most people to be convinced that a unborn child is a person, if the law outlawed their murder like any other groups murder is outlawed. If the law stated clearly without question that a unborn child is a person and is afforded the rights and privileges of a person, like any other it would help convince most that babies are people. 

[CrossCuT]

Remember, I am not fighting to keep abortion legal, I am merely offering noting that there are two ways in which this needs to be handled. Catholics seem ignore that practical side and only gnaw and scream for the legality side. There is a bigger picture that people need to realize; it needs to be addressed. 

[KnightofChrist]

Remember, I am not fighting to keep abortion legal, I am merely offering noting that there are two ways in which this needs to be handled. Catholics seem ignore that practical side and only gnaw and scream for the legality side. There is a bigger picture that people need to realize; it needs to be addressed. 

 

I have not forgotten. The causes of abortion must to be address just as much if not more than the causes of slavery. But it's being outlawed and the unborn being declared persons should not be delayed. 

[CrossCuT]

I have not forgotten. The causes of abortion must to be address just as much if not more than the causes of slavery. But it's being outlawed and the unborn being declared persons should not be delayed. 

 

Yes, I can see your point. Both of them together is something we should work towards. Make abortion illegal, and cultivate a culture of life...ei somehow fix our broken political system to reduce to increasing inequality gap. Help families who need help as well as the women who are of child bearing age to make the best decision. 

 

Education education education!

[fides' Jack]

Also Id like to be clear in that I do NOT support abortion. Most the context in which I speak is simply pro-choice where birth control is concerned.

And despite popular belief on this site, birth control is not an abortifacient. Abortifacients are abortifacients. 

 

DOG PILE!

 

PS like I have said in previous debates, if one wants to rid the world of abortion, you dont make it illegal. I mean...you CAN, but it wont really do much. Despite whatever ideological, philisophical gains that infers, abortions will still happen. You need to remove the need for abortions; ei help those impoverished, rebuild families, help those with additictions etc etc etc etc. 

And I have no energy to argue over the "CrossCut you beautiful rogue, there is no such thing as a need for abortions!" Yeah ok. Tell that to reality. 

 

Very interesting - and not to change the subject, but would you apply the same argument to gun control?  If one wants to rid the world of murders with guns, you don't make it illegal.  I mean... you CAN, but it won't really do much.

[CrossCuT]

Hmm, you raise a good question. My instinctual answer is yeah, probably. But I think the driving factors between the two are different. Id be curious what your thoughts are! Although I dont want to derail the thread too much! :P

[fides' Jack]

Hmm, you raise a good question. My instinctual answer is yeah, probably. But I think the driving factors between the two are different. Id be curious what your thoughts are! Although I dont want to derail the thread too much! :P

 

My thoughts on the matter are that they are different, but I just wanted to throw that out there to maybe spark someone's thinking about why we should outlaw abortion.

 

Abortion is the direct killing of a person, and is inherently evil in itself, so yes, it should be outlawed.

 

Guns are not evil in themselves, and can and are used for very constructive things (literally - in fact, the only type of gunpowder-based gun I've used is what this blog post is about).  And I don't think you need to have a special permit or license or background check to use one of those.

[Socrates]

I just find it a huge stumbling block when Catholics grapple with the word "need" in this situation. The need for abortion. It seems that we need to discuss this before getting to the meat of the matter. 

 

Do you understand why I say need? Do you understand why women get abortions? Do you think they do it with the intention "I want to kill my child." No, of course not!

 

The reasons are "I cannot afford another child" "I cannot emotionally handle my personal relationships"  etc. The reasons are real life reasons. Please do not take my explanation as a justification, it is not. I am not in any way trying to justify having an abortion. I am merely trying to reach out and understand why they happen. 

 

That is how logical problem solving works. You find the cause of a problem, eliminate the cause, and you wont have your problem anymore. People are so focused on the legality of the issue. That wont do poo to help save the babies. Abortions will still happen because we never addressed the need.

 

I mean sure, if you can get abortion banned thats totes fine. But youll STILL have to eliminate the need if you want them to stop. You can object all you want and run in circles, but at the end of the day, you have to eliminate the need. 

 

In other words, there is not a true need for abortion, in the correct sense of the word.

 

This is not to say that women considering abortion do not oftentimes have real and serious problems, nor to trivialize their dilemma.  

I'm just saying that babies do not need to be killed.

 

The truth is, the reasons for getting abortions range from the truly desperate and heartbreaking to the purely selfish, and even depraved, and include everything in between.  The same can also be said about the reasons for committing other murders, thefts, and other crimes, but that doesn't mean such acts should not be illegal.

 

And again, I never said that we shouldn't do more to help women in crisis pregnancies and help them make the right choice.

(I just don't buy into the naive notion that if only we have more of xyz social programs or whatever, abortion will simply go away, and laws will be completely unnecessary.)

 

In this fallen world, there will always be situations in which abortion will seem the more desirable option.

Just as there is always a "need" for murder and theft.  Still, justice demands that we work to make the law protect all innocent human beings.

 

 

 

Remember, I am not fighting to keep abortion legal, I am merely offering noting that there are two ways in which this needs to be handled. Catholics seem ignore that practical side and only gnaw and scream for the legality side. There is a bigger picture that people need to realize; it needs to be addressed. 

 

Except this has nothing to do with reality, at least as I've experienced it.  In the ultra-conservative, traditional pro-life parishes I've belonged to, there's a lot of support for crisis pregnancy centers and groups helping women in difficult pregnancies.  In my parish. we pray for individual women considering abortion at every mass.

The people I've known who have been most actively involved in the practical side of helping pregnant mothers have also been staunchly pro-life on the legal side.

 

You're attacking a straw-man caricature.

 

(But, yeah, we pro-life Catholics do spend a lot of time screaming and gnawing on things.  This distinguishes us from "pro-choice" progressives, who prefer to howl and foam at the mouth.)

[Socrates]

My thoughts on the matter are that they are different, but I just wanted to throw that out there to maybe spark someone's thinking about why we should outlaw abortion.

 

Abortion is the direct killing of a person, and is inherently evil in itself, so yes, it should be outlawed.

 

Guns are not evil in themselves, and can and are used for very constructive things (literally - in fact, the only type of gunpowder-based gun I've used is what this blog post is about).  And I don't think you need to have a special permit or license or background check to use one of those.

 

Exactly.  (I was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it.)

Murder of any person, born or unborn, is inherently evil and unjust.  Owning a gun is not.

 

That's not a trivial distinction.

 

 

Though I would say that "pro-life" liberals who oppose laws against abortion on the grounds that "they won't do anything," yet also support "gun control" laws, are inconsistent in their logic.

 

(I actually do think anti-gun legislation will have some deterrent effect, though it would overwhelmingly deter law-abiding citizens, rather than murderous criminals.  It would just shift the balance of power more to the "bad guys," while punishing those with no evil intent.)

[Norseman82]

Yes, I can see your point. Both of them together is something we should work towards. Make abortion illegal, and cultivate a culture of life...ei somehow fix our broken political system to reduce to increasing inequality gap. Help families who need help as well as the women who are of child bearing age to make the best decision. 

 

Education education education!

 

I understand we all have to do both.  The question is what will we be able to achieve first?  Do we try to change the hearts in the hope that the changes in the law will follow, or can we get the law changed as quickly as possible to get as many babies out of danger? 

 

Additionally, if we want to address the ultimate root cause of abortion, let's address people having sex when they shouldn't be.

[CrossCuT]

There are many political things you can vote on to help nurture a culture of life besides just banning abortion. 

Increase funding to schools, aid programs, charities, etc etc. Stop big corporations from exploiting tax loop holes by going over seas. That will allow for more funding to go to programs that help mothers and children in need among other things!