Conforming Your Beliefs To Church Teaching

[fides' Jack]

Cherie - thanks.  I think you pointed out what's going on here.  It's a matter of semantics.  I used the term contraception in the broadest sense, i.e. anything against conception.  Including "mindsets".

 

So I guess I should change my original post to something closer to this:

 

I had a hard time accepting that NFP is a legitimate, moral means of birth control.

 

But again, birth control here is also in its broadest sense.  Anything that controls births...

 

I think we can all agree that artificial contraception is bad, and that NFP is widely used for selfish reasons.  I just happen to draw the line for what becomes selfish in a different place than a lot of people.

[PhuturePriest]

Give me a source.  Because basically what you're saying is contradictory.  You're saying, "it's OK to be sinful when it's needed."

 

No, that's not what I said at all, actually, nor did I imply it in any sort of way. I'll let John Paul take it from here, as he is much smarter and concise than I am.

 

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/awareness-week/upload/Why-NFP-Differs-from-Contraception-JPII.pdf

[Cherie]

Cherie - thanks. I think you pointed out what's going on here. It's a matter of semantics. I used the term contraception in the broadest sense, i.e. anything against conception. Including "mindsets".

So I guess I should change my original post to something closer to this:

I had a hard time accepting that NFP is a legitimate, moral means of birth control.

But again, birth control here is also in its broadest sense. Anything that controls births...

I think we can all agree that artificial contraception is bad, and that NFP is widely used for selfish reasons. I just happen to draw the line for what becomes selfish in a different place than a lot of people.

I appreciate your response, but I must say I strongly disagree with the idea that "NFP is widely used for selfish reasons." Please, find me one of those couples using NFP selfishly. I think they must be a myth. Every couple I've ever known using NFP (and that's quite a lot) are doing so with "fear and trembling." You mean those couples using NFP in order to get their Mercedes and Disney vacation every year? I'll donate $50 to your charity of choice if you can find me one!

NFP is designed with built-in sacrifices; those inclined toward selfishness aren't going to go through the hassle of NFP, they'll just use contraception.

Anyway, this is a total hijack; sorry about that.

[fides' Jack]

I appreciate your response, but I must say I strongly disagree with the idea that "NFP is widely used for selfish reasons." Please, find me one of those couples using NFP selfishly. I think they must be a myth. Every couple I've ever known using NFP (and that's quite a lot) are doing so with "fear and trembling." You mean those couples using NFP in order to get their Mercedes and Disney vacation every year? I'll donate $50 to your charity of choice if you can find me one!

NFP is designed with built-in sacrifices; those inclined toward selfishness aren't going to go through the hassle of NFP, they'll just use contraception.

Anyway, this is a total hijack; sorry about that.

 

Obviously, that's something I can't do.  I can't point fingers at any single person.  Because that would be judging, and I'm not out to judge anyone.

 

All I can do is generalize here, which a lot of people don't like, but it makes me something of a realist.  We live in a culture with a terribly vast contraceptive mentality.  Given that, it's very likely that there are a great number of people using NFP selfishly.  If you don't believe that, then I think you have an innocent naivete which I admire.  I hope you keep it.  I think that kind of attitude is missing in our world - myself included.

[fides' Jack]

No, that's not what I said at all, actually, nor did I imply it in any sort of way. I'll let John Paul take it from here, as he is much smarter and concise than I am.

 

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/awareness-week/upload/Why-NFP-Differs-from-Contraception-JPII.pdf

 

sigh...

I understand the basics of why NFP differs from contraception.  I'm not an idiot.  I've done my homework on this.

The thread is about what we have had to conform our own beliefs to Church teaching.  I'm saying I have conformed my beliefs to Church teaching.  Why am I being attacked for that?  Because I misused the term "contraception"?  OK - I'm sorry for using that term.  I can see now that people have a very emotional response to it, and probably rightly so.

We all need to, like, chillax.  This is something of a sensitive topic - if people want to talk about it, I'm willing to do so in the Raising Small Humans board.

Edited August 21, 2014 by fides' Jack

[PhuturePriest]

sigh...

I understand the basics of why NFP differs from contraception.  I'm not an idiot.  I've done my homework on this.

The thread is about what we have had to conform our own beliefs to Church teaching.  I'm saying I have conformed my beliefs to Church teaching.  Why am I being attacked for that?  Because I misused the term "contraception"?  OK - I'm sorry for using that term.  I can see now that people have a very emotional response to it, and probably rightly so.

We all need to, like, chillax.  This is something of a sensitive topic - if people want to talk about it, I'm willing to do so in the Raising Small Humans board.

 

Please don't misread my tone -- I'm not offended or upset in any way, and I'm sorry you read my posts in that way. I just wanted to clarify Church teaching, because I thought you didn't have a clear understanding of it.

[fides' Jack]

Well, then perhaps I'm the only one who needs to calm down.  Every time any concern is shown over people using NFP to avoid pregnancy, everybody starts assuming that they're comparing it to artificial contraception, which doesn't make any sense to me.

[Cherie]

Every time any concern is shown over people using NFP to avoid pregnancy, everybody starts assuming that they're comparing it to artificial contraception, which doesn't make any sense to me.

Well, I'd reckon that'd be because you said NFP WAS contraception. I know you have since clarified, but it was hard to tell from your first comment. No harm done. :) Moving on...

[CrossCuT]

I dont really care much for tearing the contraception word apart. Who cares, its a word.

 

Just use whatever means fits best for your personal circumstances that doesnt involve killing people if you can help it. The rest of it is just water under the bridge.

[PhuturePriest]

I dont really care much for tearing the contraception word apart. Who cares, its a word.

 

Just use whatever means fits best for your personal circumstances that doesnt involve killing people if you can help it. The rest of it is just water under the bridge.

 

There are a lot of bad and harmful things you can do that don't kill people. :|

[CrossCuT]

Like cake! Oh lawd how wonderful it is but it makes me fat.

[Ice_nine]

I dont really care much for tearing the contraception word apart. Who cares, its a word.

 

Just use whatever means fits best for your personal circumstances that doesnt involve killing people if you can help it. The rest of it is just water under the bridge.

 

A basic part of Catholic moral philosophy is that both the ends and the means matter. You may get to the same place but it matters very much how you get there.

[CrossCuT]

A basic part of Catholic moral philosophy is that both the ends and the means matter. You may get to the same place but it matters very much how you get there.

 

fosho.

But the way I get there might not be the way you get there.

[superblue]

That is the anti-catholic twisting of the Church's teaching on NFP.

 It isn't an anti-Catholic twisting , it is a simple fact, don't get your undies in a bunch over it.

[PhuturePriest]

 It isn't an anti-Catholic twisting , it is a simple fact, don't get your undies in a bunch over it.

 

You should read the link by the USCCB I posted earlier that explains why NFP isn't contraception. For your convenience, I'll just post the link again: http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/awareness-week/upload/Why-NFP-Differs-from-Contraception-JPII.pdf

[superblue]

You should read the link by the USCCB I posted earlier that explains why NFP isn't contraception. For your convenience, I'll just post the link again: http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/awareness-week/upload/Why-NFP-Differs-from-Contraception-JPII.pdf

 

 

I am not a fan of the USCCB, they are not what they are cracked up to be.

 

 and all it is in this instance is a biological loop hole, doesn't mean it has to come with a negative connotation to it.

 

 

 Just because others want to throw a negative connotation to it doesn't mean It is, it is a biological fact is all it is,  and a natural loop hole,

 

http://nfpandmore.org/

simple link with a quick definition , a way to achieve or AVOID pregnancy, 

 

so if that is true, and it is natural, and the Church with all their brilliance and unquestionable knowledge says it is okay, why turn around and scream about something else or gripe about it being a loop hole ? who cares.

 

and I just realized I no longer care about this topic.

[CrossCuT]

Anyone else think the the poll (even if the numbers are low) show that people are abandoning their rational to be faithful Catholics?

Is this a positive or a negative?

Is it both?

 

Do devout Catholics find this virtuous? 

[CrossCuT]

Thats very positive! :)

If people find peace in a decision, that is always good. I am not here to judge it, I was just curious. 

[puellapaschalis]

It's a positive thing if the rationale abandoned was faulty.

 

Strictly speaking, because Truth does not contradict Truth, it is not possible to abandon a completely well-reasoned standpoint in favour of the Church's teaching, because that would imply the two are somehow not already aligned. But reality is much more nuanced than that, as is human understanding.

 

In many cases (that I've seen or heard about) it's simply a case of growing in maturity.

[CrossCuT]

I disagree simply on the fact that I dont believe the church possesses absolute truth in every aspect of what we can rationally conclude. 

But Im not saying that my way is the way everyone should take. I simply believe that if you can find peace in your choice and it makes you a better person, then you made the right choice.