dairygirl4u2c Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 So is that a no, you do not have an independent and reliable source? by that i take it that you choose to ignore the truth. ignore the information even though it's deemed as 'generally' reliable and it backs up historical truth as stated elsewhere about the history of the catholic church and abortion. like an ostrich that sticks its head in the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 by that i take it that you choose to ignore the truth. ignore the information even though it's deemed as 'generally' reliable and it backs up historical truth as stated elsewhere about the history of the catholic church and abortion. like an ostrich that sticks its head in the ground. You can take it as my inability to trust you or your source of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Ok, big shocker here: dairygirl is (partly) correct. I don't know about the sources or EWTN or whatever. Back in the day, people used to believe that living beings came from nonliving matter. So, it couldn't be considered murder because, at least in the early stages of pregnancy, it wasn't living matter. The ancient Hippocratic Oath vowed not to take life- including not performing abortions, so the ancient world must have had some idea of when life began and the Church upheld that abortions were wrong, but no one knew for sure. Nowadays, thanks to science, we know different. Living matter comes from living matter. A fetus is living matter at all stages. A fetus is human at all stages. Therefore, it would be murder to kill it at any stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 So to clarify the Benedict quote once and for all is that contraception is intrinsically evil so it should never be done- but its presence could possibly with someone indicate a step towards moral awareness. Yes, though it doesn't necessarily indicate a step towards moral awareness - that was more of a hypothetical example. It should also be noted that he was specifically talking about using condoms with the purpose of preventing the spread of disease other persons, rather than for the purpose of contraception (though condom use is wrong because it acts as a contraceptive device). Such an example would not even work regarding other forms of contraception, such as the pill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Abortion was always condemned by the Church as a gravely evil sin, even if people were not exactly sure when life began, due to the lack of technology to see what was going on inside the womb. Speculation about "ensoulment" (which was never dogma) does not mean the Church used to be okay with abortion, and anyone who makes such a claim is being blatantly dishonest. "Quickening" refers to when one can feel the baby move. The soul is the life principle of the body, and a body without a soul would be dead. In ancient and medieval times, the technology did not exist to enable one to know exactly what was going on in the early stages of pregnancy. Today, with modern science, we know that a human being is alive from conception, and does not suddenly come to life at "quickening." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Abortion was always condemned by the Church as a gravely evil sin, even if people were not exactly sure when life began, due to the lack of technology to see what was going on inside the womb. Speculation about "ensoulment" (which was never dogma) does not mean the Church used to be okay with abortion, and anyone who makes such a claim is being blatantly dishonest. "Quickening" refers to when one can feel the baby move. The soul is the life principle of the body, and a body without a soul would be dead. In ancient and medieval times, the technology did not exist to enable one to know exactly what was going on in the early stages of pregnancy. Today, with modern science, we know that a human being is alive from conception, and does not suddenly come to life at "quickening." Indeed, indeed, quite so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Anyone else think the the poll (even if the numbers are low) show that people are abandoning their rational to be faithful Catholics? Is this a positive or a negative? Is it both? Do devout Catholics find this virtuous? Your rational mind tells you these boxes are different colors. So, yes, I will always abandon my rational mind in order to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 CrossCut, you should read this book. It is extremely short. I think it took me like 1/2 hour to read: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933919469/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1933919469&linkCode=as2&tag=phatmasscom-20&linkId=YVCHJURCZICR3JFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 CrossCut, you should read this book. It is extremely short. I think it took me like 1/2 hour to read: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933919469/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1933919469&linkCode=as2&tag=phatmasscom-20&linkId=YVCHJURCZICR3JFS Excellent book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) Your rational mind tells you these boxes are different colors. So, yes, I will always abandon my rational mind in order to be correct. It has the appearance of different shades of gray, but upon further investigation we realize that to be false. Is your example suppose to mean that you never dig deeper into matters? You just go on face value and accept that the two colors are indeed different? Or are you trying to say that rational might not always be right? Edited August 26, 2014 by CrossCuT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 It has the appearance of different shades of gray, but upon further investigation we realize that to be false. Is your example suppose to mean that you never dig deeper into matters? You just go on face value and accept that the two colors are indeed different? Or are you trying to say that rational might not always be right? I believe he is saying that you should dig a little deeper than initial bias. You are supposing he is dismissing rationale, but in fact, he dug deeper and saw the Church was right originally, but he misinterpreted. Repeat often enough, and he places a certain amount of trust that the Church was/is right, it perception or assumption that is the error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Ah ok. I guess Im going in the opposite direction. Born and raised catholic. I could recite every rule and why we believed it. But when i got older I started asking more questions and I began to deviate because things made more sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Ah ok. I guess Im going in the opposite direction. Born and raised catholic. I could recite every rule and why we believed it. But when i got older I started asking more questions and I began to deviate because things made more sense to me. You aren't born Catholic, you get baptized as an infant. Not to be harsh, but you don't appear to know every rule and why. I am a Catholic Apostate, so I get the idea of going a different direction, but we all could learn more about where we came from. Catholic philosophy is generally more deep and nuanced than it's given credit for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 You aren't born Catholic, you get baptized as an infant. Not to be harsh, but you don't appear to know every rule and why. I am a Catholic Apostate, so I get the idea of going a different direction, but we all could learn more about where we came from. Catholic philosophy is generally more deep and nuanced than it's given credit for. Colloquialism. Calm down. And you dont know me so theres absolutyly no way you would be able to make that judgment call about my current or previous understand of my faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) Colloquialism. Calm down. And you dont know me so theres absolutyly no way you would be able to make that judgment call about my current or previous understand of my faith.Ain't excited, but resisting the urge to point out such a common and obvious misstatement isn't an ability I have powered up at the moment. I read your posts. I hear only what you tell me, and go from there. But TBH, you do post ALOT Edited August 26, 2014 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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