Thoughts On College And Tuition?

[Anastasia13]

I say go to college, but make sure you work while you go, go to community college first, and apply for scholarships.

And try to make it several years of related work experience that can translate into some sort of career.

[blazeingstar]

As someone who works at a college.

 

More and more I see traditional college as the "parent-less" generation and a touch of consumerism catching up with us.

 

The current cots in college come from students wanting to have hotel-like dorms, private chef-like dinners and the need for every activity known to man as well as support services for every disability known to man and the very huge need for counseling.  At my college of 3,000 there were 3 full time psychologists and 2 part timers.  The need was real.

 

My job is solely born out of students being unable to care for themselves.

 

I find parents neglectful and disgusting often, especially those "good".  They drop little Janie off at college without knowing how to so much as boil water, do laundry, cope with any sort of incarnation of the word no.  What freshman don't know, and how ill prepared they are gets worse year after year.  It wasn't until the late 2000's when orientation started to include a laundry day.  Hotplates are banned and so are coffee makers.  In dorm inspections and leave behinds we see virtually none of these self-reliance items where we once saw hundreds.  There are quite a few students who don't know how to make ramen unless it came in one of those foam cups...taking it out of a plastic bag and placing it in a bowl somehow is too confusing.  If you look at an orientation staff book from the 1990's compared to today....I just can't imagine students like that.  Once upon a time RA staff did dorm checks for freshman on their first night to prevent hook-ups.  They now do it to ensure parents have gone home....of both men and women!!!  Do you know how many hundreds of thousands of work-study dollars are now denied.  I drove through one campus that had a poster that 80% of work study funds were rejected by students and and 50% of those students do not indicate having outside employment.  Except for nurses--who have clinics and work experience--- no one, not music majors, not engineers, no one (bar disabilities) should be going through college without employment.

 

So for the rest of society, those of who wish to succeed and get the educational component, things get tough.

 

Education could be cheap, but it's not colleges fault it is expensive.  Students need to be diligent.  Get a scholarship, get credit as a high-school student, do  a 2+2 or even 3+1 tract that 99% of community colleges have.   There is absolutely no reason, no need to graduate with 30k or more in debt.  If every student did this---within a few years things would come back into balance.

 

That, and trade school is now looked down upon when it's the cheaper, more efficient solution for many students, often those who languish in college and take bogus majors because they can't deal with the rigor of an actual major.

 

But it's the fault of the consumers, not the providers.  Student loans have just made it possible for the providers to give more to their consumers.

[Maggyie]

College is an awesome investment but like any investing it has to be done correctly.

Often times I see people on this phorum wanting to go to a private Catholic college and get a bachelors in theology.

That's a recipe for disaster. Unless you are planning to continue on the academic track to a doctorate or enter the priesthood, the Church has 0 unmet need for people with bachelors degrees in theology. None. Zippo.

It's not needed to evangelize and in fact it's a barrier to evangelization if it keeps you from entering religious life or having a happy Domestic Church because of all the debt.

Everything you will learn in Dr Scott Hahn's undergrad classroom (or at Ave Maria or Christendom for instance) can be learned by opening books on the weekend.

[puellapaschalis]

College is an amesome investment but like any investing it has to be done correctly.

Often times I see people on this phorum wanting to go to a private Catholic college and get a bachelors in theology.

That's a recipe for disaster. Unless you are planning to continue on the academic track to a doctorate or enter the priesthood, the Church has 0 unmet need for people with bachelors degrees in theology. None. Zippo.

It's not needed to evangelize and in fact it's a barrier to evangelization if it keeps you from entering religious life or having a happy Domestic Church because of all the debt.

Everything you will learn in Dr Scott Hahn's undergrad classroom (or at Ave Maria or Christendom for instance) can be learned by opening books on the weekend.

 

Agreed. I think people often want to study Theology when in fact what they need is decent, advanced, catechesis, which of course must be much more extensive than the watered-down pap handed out today.
 

[CatherineM]

We're so short of tradespeople here that pipe fitters make more money than lawyers.

[Fidei Defensor]

College is an amesome investment but like any investing it has to be done correctly.

Often times I see people on this phorum wanting to go to a private Catholic college and get a bachelors in theology.

That's a recipe for disaster. Unless you are planning to continue on the academic track to a doctorate or enter the priesthood, the Church has 0 unmet need for people with bachelors degrees in theology. None. Zippo.

It's not needed to evangelize and in fact it's a barrier to evangelization if it keeps you from entering religious life or having a happy Domestic Church because of all the debt.

Everything you will learn in Dr Scott Hahn's undergrad classroom (or at Ave Maria or Christendom for instance) can be learned by opening books on the weekend.

I agree. That's why I got a degree in biology first…and NOW i'm going for theology!

[Amppax]

Yeah, and you can do that with a library card and an internet connection.  Sure, there's absolutely no replacing a classroom setting, with a professor and being able to discuss with other students. 

 

 

But those people turn out to be the Rousseau's of this world. And Rousseau was a moron. Not only is there no replacing, there's really no comparison. I'm tired of dealing with people thinking they're experts because they've read and think they understand what they're reading. 

[CrossCuT]

The american model of education is poo. 

 

Education has turned into a business and the students are profit centers. Universities do not reflect real life and most students dont cultivate an open mind or free thinking while they are there...they want to get good grades! And the only way to do that is to say what the teacher wants to hear on a test or exam. "Free thinking" is rewarded with poor grades in college. 

 

People regard certain degrees as worthless because you cant get a job...thats sad. No one should feel like they cant do what they want to because their interest arent money makers. And that may be a narrative that goes beyond the classroom but I digress. 

 

Im a socialist so I believe in high tax to fund education for EVERYONE without destroying their future prospects. Not only that, but people wont be so afraid to go to school with the thoughts of debt burdening their mind. So many people simply cant handle that burden and thus dont go to school.

 

But what do I know? Im a liberal socialist hippie feminist! :) 

[CrossCuT]

My job is solely born out of students being unable to care for themselves.

 

What do you do? 

[blazeingstar]

What do you do? 

 

A mix of things, but it s a job once handled by professors, I have an official title, but in reality I'm similar to a high school guidance Councillor combined with tutor and parent/student/professor arbitrator.  

 

The level of support services required by students today, even in the low-cost models like Community Colleges and Junior colleges have been nothing short of horrific in my view.  

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how the college I work for stays in business.  These are the non-residential things that we provide:

How, for $100-$300 a credit can a college

-provide emotional support

-provide tutoring

-provide emergency resources

-provide professional councelling

-provide "interesting" activities

-provide transportation

-provide career services

-provide classes themselves

-develop staff, including instructors

-provide employees with decent workspaces

-maintain buildings

 

....I can go on and on....and this is for a college who's majority of students don't live on campus.  Campus student's needs are CRAZY.  One college (it was out west, I believe) with a bad rep for food redid their dining hall and enrollment and student satisfaction jumped by 150% in 3 years.

 

We have a model that is simply not sustainable from both ends.  Eventually, people won't pay, eventually we will run out of services to provide, eventually adjuncts will go back to working in the professional world.

[PhuturePriest]

College is an amesome investment but like any investing it has to be done correctly.

Often times I see people on this phorum wanting to go to a private Catholic college and get a bachelors in theology.

That's a recipe for disaster. Unless you are planning to continue on the academic track to a doctorate or enter the priesthood, the Church has 0 unmet need for people with bachelors degrees in theology. None. Zippo.

It's not needed to evangelize and in fact it's a barrier to evangelization if it keeps you from entering religious life or having a happy Domestic Church because of all the debt.

Everything you will learn in Dr Scott Hahn's undergrad classroom (or at Ave Maria or Christendom for instance) can be learned by opening books on the weekend.

 

My sister went to Benedictine and got a degree in theology and youth ministry. In one of her classes, one of her required books was Coming Soon: Unlocking the Book of Revelation by Michael Barber. She literally paid $33,000 that year to hear a guy relay the information out of a $16 book.

[Credo in Deum]

http://youtu.be/eiRGRvE_Wqg

[PhuturePriest]

But those people turn out to be the Rousseau's of this world. And Rousseau was a moron. Not only is there no replacing, there's really no comparison. I'm tired of dealing with people thinking they're experts because they've read and think they understand what they're reading. 

 

Both narrow-minded and wrong. Stephen Ray has never taken one college class in his life. He is also a leading expert on apologetics and tour guides in the Middle East, and is one of the most sought-after apologists in the world. He learned everything he knows simply by going to the library.

[Poorly Catechized Convert]

I don't like the idea that you need a practical major (usually defined as a STEM field) to make college worth it. English, poli
sci, economics, and similar degrees can be made to work. Sure they don't lead directly into a specific career, but if someone worked hard and took internships they will be able to fine a decent job. Also, people who study these fields are usually not doing so because they aren't good enough for a STEM feild, but because these subjects appeal to how they think and are something they're willing to make work. Someone who majored in a STEM field just because it was practical, but hated the subject, won't be able to compete with the majority of people in the majors -- despite doing good in class. Furthermore, some people aren't suited for going into a trade and wouldn't be successful in such a career. In these cases it makes sense to get a liberal arts degree and work at gaining experience to be employable after college. That is a viable route to go.

[CrossCuT]

The majority of my science classes required me to purchase a$200 text book which the teachers never used. They typically taught off their power point slids and use the book as a reference or "If you want additional info go to the text book,  but I will only test you on the slides."

[Basilisa Marie]

But those people turn out to be the Rousseau's of this world. And Rousseau was a moron. Not only is there no replacing, there's really no comparison. I'm tired of dealing with people thinking they're experts because they've read and think they understand what they're reading. 

 

Oh I agree completely, which is why I said that nothing can replace a classroom setting (learning to think, research, etc). :)  A classroom has a certain capacity to teach you how wrong you are that self-study really lacks. Even when you think you're just dealing with facts and knowledge, there's a certain level of wisdom and understanding that can only be passed on through learning from other people, ideally in a flesh-and-blood expert, but possibly from a good book. 

 

Either way, people need guidance.  I wouldn't trade my undergraduate or graduate studies for anything, they're huge forces in determining who I am today. But I don't expect them to get me a job. I expect them to get me over one of many hurdles on the path towards getting a job. 

 

There's got to be a careful balance between pragmatism and idealism. The danger in being too pragmatic is that you lose the real sense of what a liberal education means, and in some ways that calls into question some of the most important ideas about what it means to be a citizen of the Western World. You reduce education to simple memorization of facts. It's like eliminating the Holy Spirit's gifts of wisdom and understanding in favor of knowledge. The danger in ignoring practical considerations is that you end up with kids who think that a job will just be handed to them, that everything will work out in the end simply because they can't really feel the debt until later. And to be fair, no generation has really taken on debt like this for school before, so there weren't a whole lot of models to learn from. 

[PhuturePriest]

Oh I agree completely, which is why I said that nothing can replace a classroom setting (learning to think, research, etc). :)  A classroom has a certain capacity to teach you how wrong you are that self-study really lacks. Even when you think you're just dealing with facts and knowledge, there's a certain level of wisdom and understanding that can only be passed on through learning from other people, ideally in a flesh-and-blood expert, but possibly from a good book. 

 

Either way, people need guidance.  I wouldn't trade my undergraduate or graduate studies for anything, they're huge forces in determining who I am today. But I don't expect them to get me a job. I expect them to get me over one of many hurdles on the path towards getting a job. 

 

There's got to be a careful balance between pragmatism and idealism. The danger in being too pragmatic is that you lose the real sense of what a liberal education means, and in some ways that calls into question some of the most important ideas about what it means to be a citizen of the Western World. You reduce education to simple memorization of facts. It's like eliminating the Holy Spirit's gifts of wisdom and understanding in favor of knowledge. The danger in ignoring practical considerations is that you end up with kids who think that a job will just be handed to them, that everything will work out in the end simply because they can't really feel the debt until later. And to be fair, no generation has really taken on debt like this for school before, so there weren't a whole lot of models to learn from. 

 

 

Both narrow-minded and wrong. Stephen Ray has never taken one college class in his life. He is also a leading expert on apologetics and tour guides in the Middle East, and is one of the most sought-after apologists in the world. He learned everything he knows simply by going to the library.

[blazeingstar]

Both narrow-minded and wrong. Stephen Ray has never taken one college class in his life. He is also a leading expert on apologetics and tour guides in the Middle East, and is one of the most sought-after apologists in the world. He learned everything he knows simply by going to the library.

 

Not really.  Bill Gates dropped out of the Ivy leagues, so did Zukerberg and so many of those on the fortune 500 list.  There can be anomalies.  There can be ridiculously talented autodidacts who do learn.   To post one or two people would be like trying to say that Julliard is unnecessary because Mozart didn't go to college.

 

Not only that, but I'm sure that he benefited from college level skills acquired by others. Unless his books are 100% divine revelation.

 

Although, I think you're actually wrong on the never taken one college class. Maybe not for a grade, but I imagine as a Research Fellow in theology, he's probably very familiar with the inside of a classroom.

 

We should be always learning, we should strive to learn.

[PhuturePriest]

Not really.  Bill Gates dropped out of the Ivy leagues, so did Zukerberg and so many of those on the fortune 500 list.  There can be anomalies.  There can be ridiculously talented autodidacts who do learn.   To post one or two people would be like trying to say that Julliard is unnecessary because Mozart didn't go to college.

 

Not only that, but I'm sure that he benefited from college level skills acquired by others. Unless his books are 100% divine revelation.

 

Although, I think you're actually wrong on the never taken one college class. Maybe not for a grade, but I imagine as a Research Fellow in theology, he's probably very familiar with the inside of a classroom.

 

We should be always learning, we should strive to learn.

 

I've spoken to him in person and personally know him. He said he's never even stepped into a college classroom before.

[Basilisa Marie]

I don't like the idea that you need a practical major (usually defined as a STEM field) to make college worth it. English, poli
sci, economics, and similar degrees can be made to work. Sure they don't lead directly into a specific career, but if someone worked hard and took internships they will be able to fine a decent job. 

 

See, that's the thing - you're supplementing your degree with experience, which is beneficial to ANY major. My boyfriend was a biology major but in order to get into medical school he did some special one-credit projects (a bit like an academic internship) and did a ton of hours volunteering and shadowing a doctor. Myself, on the other hand, majored in theology but didn't get an internship at the local parish while in school (derp, hindsight is always 20/20) and all anyone told me was that I didn't have enough experience to find a job, even though I had a degree and even though I took pastoral ministry classes. My engineering friends got their first jobs because of internships.

 

Just like a high school diploma and an SAT score really isn't enough to get into college these days, having a simple degree isn't enough to get you a job. 

 

To circle back to money, what do you think is a reasonable amount of debt? I heard one person say that it was the average maximum yearly salary for someone in your field, but I'm not sure how that translates.