Thoughts On College And Tuition?

[PhuturePriest]

If only those who preferred to be self taught only had to come in and take the same examination as the regular students to prove they know what they claim they know.

Alas, the university would lose lots on tuition money and they sure as heck cant have that!!!

 

ps. thanks for the tip from CA! I havent checked it as often as I should

 

That would be a compromise I would very much like. You could even make the self-taught people take 2 exams for all I care, because I do agree there is increased risk with a person who learned everything by himself.

 

I also think money is a reason colleges tell poor unknowing students that all they need to get is a degree to have the jobs thrown at them. If they didn't think that, they might not go, and if they don't go, it's less money in the university's pocket.

[CrossCuT]

That would be a compromise I would very much like. You could even make the self-taught people take 2 exams for all I care, because I do agree there is increased risk with a person who learned everything by himself.

 

I also think money is a reason colleges tell poor unknowing students that all they need to get is a degree to have the jobs thrown at them. If they didn't think that, they might not go, and if they don't go, it's less money in the university's pocket.

 

My fiance is in a fortunate position to be able to do that. 

Even though he never got a college degree, his interested are in the techy and computer stuff. He is completely self taught and will be taking the Microsoft and Cisco certifications which are the best you can get and open nearly any door you wish to go through in that career path. 

 

Unfortunately, not everything is set up that way, but there are reasons for that. Like I said before, its very specific to what you want to do, but in general, the sentiment is "Go to a university and spend an arm and a leg for a possible chance at a job!"

[blazeingstar]

That would be a compromise I would very much like. You could even make the self-taught people take 2 exams for all I care, because I do agree there is increased risk with a person who learned everything by himself.

 

I also think money is a reason colleges tell poor unknowing students that all they need to get is a degree to have the jobs thrown at them. If they didn't think that, they might not go, and if they don't go, it's less money in the university's pocket.

 

Some colleges are crooked, University of Phoenix for instance.  They do lie

 

Other colleges believe strongly that they only attract the best students and therefore, if you make it to the doors you can make it anywhere, like Harvard.

 

The great majority simply want to help students.  I cannot tell you how much verbal abuse I've taken from 30-40 yo men over having to take a philosophy/history/business law class but then realize there is value in learning something that's not directly related towards their degree

 

There is a business nature to colleges, however, they often do believe that higher education is the answer.

 

And what you're both speaking to is called assessment based learning.  Western Governor's is the most famous version of that.

[PhuturePriest]

Some colleges are crooked, University of Phoenix for instance.  They do lie

 

Other colleges believe strongly that they only attract the best students and therefore, if you make it to the doors you can make it anywhere, like Harvard.

 

The great majority simply want to help students.  I cannot tell you how much verbal abuse I've taken from 30-40 yo men over having to take a philosophy/history/business law class but then realize there is value in learning something that's not directly related towards their degree

 

There is a business nature to colleges, however, they often do believe that higher education is the answer.

 

And what you're both speaking to is called assessment based learning.  Western Governor's is the most famous version of that.

 

What's wrong with the University of Phoenix? You've mentioned it several times, so I'm just curious.

[blazeingstar]

What's wrong with the University of Phoenix? You've mentioned it several times, so I'm just curious.

 

 

There a for-profit scam with a graduation rate of 1 in 1,000.

[PhuturePriest]

There a for-profit scam with a graduation rate of 1 in 1,000.

 

Holy crap. I see advertisements for them all over the internet, and I never knew that. Is it even located in Phoenix, or is it just an online thing?

[Anomaly]

Phetus
Since your talking of trade school, a great analogy is likening education to a toolbox.
Great tools can make the job easier, but it won't do the work for you.
Nor does expensive tools make you a great craftsman.
A high level of skill and talent can often overcome inadequate tools.
Expensive tools are worthless if you don't use them or even need them.
You can't change a tire with just a hammer.

[PhuturePriest]

Phetus
Since your talking of trade school, a great analogy is likening education to a toolbox.
Great tools can make the job easier, but it won't do the work for you.
Nor does expensive tools make you a great craftsman.
A high level of skill and talent can often overcome inadequate tools.
Expensive tools are worthless if you don't use them or even need them.
You can't change a tire with just a hammer.

 

I wanted to make a sarcastic response to this, and so Googled for tools that do the work for you, but none came up.

 

The internet is a great disappointment today.

[Anomaly]

I wanted to make a sarcastic response to this, and so Googled for tools that do the work for you, but none came up.

The internet is a great disappointment today.

Alas. What has the web become if it no longer facilitates intelligent sarcasm?

I feelz ur painz.

[PhuturePriest]

Alas. What has the web become if it no longer facilitates intelligent sarcasm?

I feelz ur painz.

 

All I read in that is you think I have intelligent sarcasm.

 

I always liked you.

[CrossCuT]

Sure if he can compete with all of the other people from India with the same certifications and who are willing to work for less.

 

Nah, cause the job/office/physical location for a network administrator would be somewhere in the US and not in india. Unless the people from india move here in which they will be working for the same pay. Or he applied for a network administrator job in india and moved there and worked for less. 

 

Manufacturing and tech support jobs..or other telecommunication jobs usually get outsourced to India...but not really network admin..

Edited August 26, 2014 by CrossCuT

[blazeingstar]

Holy croutons. I see advertisements for them all over the internet, and I never knew that. Is it even located in Phoenix, or is it just an online thing?

 

They have a physical building in several places but it's primarily online.

[CrossCuT]

yes its a competitive field. Did someone say its not? everything is competitive these days...but tech field more so. 

But my reply id to your initial statement about a dude from india "stealing" the job to be paid less. That is outsourcing which wouldnt be the case for a job he applies to here in the US. Doesnt mean that an indian guy cant apply for it. 

[blazeingstar]

You think Microsoft is paying for these visas and hiring these people so they can pay them the same rate as the US citizens they're laying off who are already certified in the field of networking? Do you think there is a shortage of certified US citizens in the field of networking?

 

I don't know about microsoft, but I do know that for  the company my Fiancee's is employed by he has 2 Indian co-workers who make the same that he does because they can't get enough Americans to work for them.   They also tend to be more loyal, you know visa and all.  I know someone from NZ who used to be on these boards who immigrated to America on a tech visa. 

 

I also know that matlab/matwork & simulink had over 300 jobs and was only able to hire about 130 employees.

 

That we simply need STEM degrees and talents is a myth.  We need well rounded individuals with capacity for STEM topics.  That's why foreigners can be more appealing to tech companies, if anything they are multi-lingual and have better understanding of different cultures.

[CrossCuT]

You think Microsoft is paying for these visas and hiring these people so they can pay them the same rate as the US citizens they're laying off who are already certified in the field of networking? Do you think there is a shortage of certified US citizens in the field of networking?

 

What is your point? Dont do what you want to do in life?

Give up its too hard?

Become an indian?

[CrossCuT]

Make a list of the things you think my fiance should do for a career and send it to me in a PM. I will then proceed to not care.

[PhuturePriest]

[blazeingstar]

My point is have a backup plan and don't be naive and think certifications for being a network administrator are going to open nearly every door your fiancé wishes to go through. If he wants to pursue being a network administrator then more power to him; however, IMO he should also shoot for going past that and being a network architect or even higher a computer and information systems manager. These fields are great places for job stability. Network Admins and engineers not so much these days. At least not in Microsoft.

Also I'm not faulting people from India. They are doing what any of us would do and that's seize an employment opportunity when it rears it's head. I am faulting big companies for screwing over their current employees who have the same certifications and experience and who are getting canned because the company doesn't want to pay them their salaries or their stock options when they become fully vested. Loyal hard working employees, contrary to what others might think.

 

Credo, as far as I can see, most of those workers from India, living in America are making similar salaries.  Some are disclosed.  It's quite illegal to pay someone differently on the basis of race.

 

There are many articles about why Americans aren't being hired for STEM jobs, and it has very little to do with pay, but much more to do with talent, willingness to stay with a company, diversity and innovation. 

 

Like I said, there are many, many tech companies hurting for qualified employees in my area.  Of course, we were just named one of the areas with the best economy in the US.....but I digress....

 

Are there unjust firings?  Sure

 

But lets look at other revolutions in America, particularly in the textile mills post child labor laws.  People were furious when foreigners were brought in at the mills, but they weren't brought in soley because they were cheap, but because they knew things Americans didn't.  Germans knew how to produce X cloth, the irish had laces, the scottish had whatever that kilt material is called, french knew something and asians knew silks.  We are in the exact same position in the tech world but in a far more xenophobic era.  If it was just about money then Americans would choose to be paid less (especially right out of college) then have no job at all.

[God the Father]

College is worth it only if you do not pay a dime for it, in cash or debt. This is the case with business degrees and even engineering/science in some markets.

 

God help you if you shell out six figures for a humanities diploma.

 

Learn how to fix cars/pipes/wires/computers and don't look back.

 

#2013grad

[blazeingstar]

College is worth it only if you do not pay a dime for it, in cash or debt. This is the case with business degrees and even engineering/science in some markets.

 

God help you if you shell out six figures for a humanities diploma.

 

Learn how to fix cars/pipes/wires/computers and don't look back.

 

#2013grad

 

I paid quite a bit for my undergrad, a business degree, and got a wonderful job that I could only get with a degree and I've helped people and made a difference in many lives.  I will done paying my undergrad off in a few months.  Yes, its been tough at times but I do not regret it one ion.

 

My masters will be free...and its technically less valuable than my bachelors.  But having my bachelors got me a free Masters.

 

Some debit is ok when it comes down to it.  Manageable debt.  Debt that is relative to income and to the people issuing the degree.  I paid more because I went to a private Catholic college, but I am better for it and I'd never trade the years of sacrifice I've had to make financially for what you deal with at other schools....which sound like the schools Crosscut is familiar with.  My profs were dynamic, out-of-the-box and engaging, my class sizes were small, ethics mattered and morals triumphed, Daily Mass was offered and even though its not one of the Catholics top 25 Catholic schools it was a great place.  There was diversity among students and different view points.

 

Some things are worth debt.  And hard work (I did work study and paid quite a bit each term)