I Support Scotland!

[superblue]

Secession from the United States is illegal. The chances of the law being overturned are close to zero.  

 

 

 You are absolutely insane if you think a State in the USA  to claim Secession is Illegal , this debate itself has been time an again questioned, there is absolutely nothing anywhere in the Consitution or the Bill of Rights nor will there ever be, anything that remotely comes close to forbidding a State in America from Seceeding, as to the chances of a state actually doing it, be the one with the only chance to do it is Texas, it will never happen, nor the other 49. for plenty of reasons. none of them good.

[superblue]

Which if you want to believe Seceeding in America is illegal, that is rather a very sad thought, because in that case it leaves the American people nothing in terms of rectifying an injust situation,  all there would be is to put a bucket over ones head and pretend that one can simply vote away ones problems.

 

The only reason Scottland has a chance is because they are united, and we are in a modern civilization where Scottland is not critical to the world, when states in China, Russia, and the USA, N.Korea, start talking secession or a revolt, then everyone gets on pins an needles.

 

 

But in the end who cares, because it all only matters if peaceful and honest people abide by the rules set in place, when you put dishonest and corrupt people into a system with checks an balances then that system is no longer trust worthy, and then when that system controls the weapons , money, and can now create new laws to protect themselves, the people then become slaves because all they can do is say well, that is the law we voted for, and it is illegal to revolt or seceed so oh well.

[puellapaschalis]

All I know about Texas I learnt from Dallas and CGP Grey.

 

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S92fTz_-kQE[/youtube]

[Lilllabettt]

 You are absolutely insane if you think a State in the USA  to claim Secession is Illegal , this debate itself has been time an again questioned, there is absolutely nothing anywhere in the Consitution or the Bill of Rights nor will there ever be, anything that remotely comes close to forbidding a State in America from Seceeding, as to the chances of a state actually doing it, be the one with the only chance to do it is Texas, it will never happen, nor the other 49. for plenty of reasons. none of them good.

 

 

The question of the legality of secession was settled by this enormous precedent setting earthquake in American history known as the Civil War, a.k.a. War Between the States a.k.a. War of Northern Aggression:

 

"To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede." --Justice Antonin Scalia

 

 

Now I think Justice Scalia is a little "out there." But absolutely insane, not quite.

 

 Very occasionally the Supreme Court overturns established precedent. When you think you've found a cause big enough to overcome the precedent set by the Civil War let me know. Keep in mind that these words: "In this temple as in the hearts of the people for whom he saved the Union the memory of Abraham Lincoln is enshrined forever" are chiseled into the stone above a 20ft statue of 16th President of the United States, who got shot on Good Friday, shortly after giving a famous speech about forgiveness. Basically American history has assigned him the Jesus role, ok. Of course the United States has its own personal Jesus figure. Naturally. The point is if you think the people who decide what the Constitution means are going to change their minds about whether the Union is a mystical forever bond, do not hold your breath, cuz you'll die. 

 

I'm not talking about natural law, or moral law, or anything like that. No philosophy mumbo jumbo, just facts on the ground. Fact on the ground is that secession in America is illegal. 

 

Texas reserved the right to succeed when they joined the Union.

 

Thats nice. And a very Texan thing to do.

Personally I have no doubt that Americans loyal to the Union would burn Texas to the ground before allowing her to secede. See Field Order No. 120.

 

My understanding though is that for Englishmen the United Kingdom is not a religious experience. It follows that secession would not be a sacrilegious act. And therefore it would not produce a burning desire to open veins in Scotland. But I wonder about families on either side. Now we need a passport to visit Grandma? That would be a strange turn of things.

[puellapaschalis]

My understanding though is that for Englishmen the United Kingdom is not a religious experience. It follows that secession would not be a sacrilegious act. And therefore it would not produce a burning desire to open veins in Scotland. But I wonder about families on either side. Now we need a passport to visit Grandma? That would be a strange turn of things.

 

 

I can only describe it as hilarious. This country (NL) has me carrying my passport around with me anyway and I'm used to it now, but it's anathema to a British mind. That you'd need a passport when you're not even leaving the island...ha!

 

Also eloping to Gretna Green would become somewhat trickier.

 

In all seriousness though, despite what other separations there are, I don't see there being active border controls put into place.

Edited September 18, 2014 by puellapaschalis

[CatherineM]

"Thats nice. And a very Texan thing to do.
Personally I have no doubt that Americans loyal to the Union would burn Texas to the ground before allowing her to secede. See Field Order No. 120."

I take it you've never actually been to Texas.

[superblue]

 

 

 

The question of the legality of secession was settled by this enormous precedent setting earthquake in American history known as the Civil War, a.k.a. War Between the States a.k.a. War of Northern Aggression:

 

 

Now I think Justice Scalia is a little "out there." But absolutely insane, not quite.

 

 Very occasionally the Supreme Court overturns established precedent. When you think you've found a cause big enough to overcome the precedent set by the Civil War let me know. Keep in mind that these words: "In this temple as in the hearts of the people for whom he saved the Union the memory of Abraham Lincoln is enshrined forever" are chiseled into the stone above a 20ft statue of 16th President of the United States, who got shot on Good Friday, shortly after giving a famous speech about forgiveness. Basically American history has assigned him the Jesus role, ok. Of course the United States has its own personal Jesus figure. Naturally. The point is if you think the people who decide what the Constitution means are going to change their minds about whether the Union is a mystical forever bond, do not hold your breath, cuz you'll die. 

 

I'm not talking about natural law, or moral law, or anything like that. No philosophy mumbo jumbo, just facts on the ground. Fact on the ground is that secession in America is illegal. 

 

 

Thats nice. And a very Texan thing to do.

Personally I have no doubt that Americans loyal to the Union would burn Texas to the ground before allowing her to secede. See My understanding though is that for Englishmen the United Kingdom is not a religious experience. It follows that secession would not be a sacrilegious act. And therefore it would not produce a burning desire to open veins in Scotland. But I wonder about families on either side. Now we need a passport to visit Grandma? That would be a strange turn of things.

 

 

 

Bravo you know about the Civil War; The " Union " has died decades ago for one, and two you and everyone else knows any law can be repealed, it is not written in stone, and more over trying to say secession is illegal, is like saying it is illegal to determine where you want to live and how you want to breath.  The Civil War was far more complex than just the Southern States wanting to secede , and being such a young country at the time, it was necessary to hold the actual union together, times change, society changes; we as a nation hold the right to determine when, where , and how if we want to be free from an oppressive government, the government does not get to freely dictate to a free people when they may or may not free themselves from that government, that is moronic to think that. 

 

But as it may be; even if as a free people we should secede at any point be it now, 20 years ago, or in the future, it can't happen, as the rest of the world depends on the solidarity of America even if they wish we would be more " progressive ".  

 

And isn't that last part interesting with Americans burning Texas to the ground if they decided to secede, The real question should be why ? Why would our fellow freedom loving Americans declare any state traitorous or terrorists, or anti- American for wanting to leave the union, why send in federal troops and the military to restore order, it would make more sense to let the secession play out peacefully, diplomatically, at least in this day in age, not during the first civil war ;  but even if it did happen peacefully, China would scream  bloody murder on debts owed, and the rest of the world would probably start laughing and gloating in their own idiocy on how the Union fell.

 

Debt is probably the only real issue holding America together.

 

Though it is nice to know the new church of America will tell us what is morally and legally acceptable now, and what we me claim as our personal rights, beliefs and freedom.  Nice to not have to think for ourselves any more or stand up for what we believe in.
 

[Lilllabettt]

"Thats nice. And a very Texan thing to do.
Personally I have no doubt that Americans loyal to the Union would burn Texas to the ground before allowing her to secede. See Field Order No. 120."

I take it you've never actually been to Texas.

 

Lived there for a bit actually. Lots of sky.

 

Bravo you know about the Civil War; The " Union " has died decades ago for one, and two you and everyone else knows any law can be repealed, it is not written in stone, and more over trying to say secession is illegal, is like saying it is illegal to determine where you want to live and how you want to breath.  The Civil War was far more complex than just the Southern States wanting to secede , and being such a young country at the time, it was necessary to hold the actual union together, times change, society changes; we as a nation hold the right to determine when, where , and how if we want to be free from an oppressive government, the government does not get to freely dictate to a free people when they may or may not free themselves from that government, that is moronic to think that. 

 

But as it may be; even if as a free people we should secede at any point be it now, 20 years ago, or in the future, it can't happen, as the rest of the world depends on the solidarity of America even if they wish we would be more " progressive ".  

 

And isn't that last part interesting with Americans burning Texas to the ground if they decided to secede, The real question should be why ? Why would our fellow freedom loving Americans declare any state traitorous or terrorists, or anti- American for wanting to leave the union, why send in federal troops and the military to restore order, it would make more sense to let the secession play out peacefully, diplomatically, at least in this day in age, not during the first civil war ;  but even if it did happen peacefully, China would scream  bloody murder on debts owed, and the rest of the world would probably start laughing and gloating in their own idiocy on how the Union fell.

 

Debt is probably the only real issue holding America together.

 

Though it is nice to know the new church of America will tell us what is morally and legally acceptable now, and what we me claim as our personal rights, beliefs and freedom.  Nice to not have to think for ourselves any more or stand up for what we believe in.
 

 

of course laws can be overturned. The point is that the chances of this particular law being overturned in the next 100 years are essentially zero. 

Whether you think Texas should secede, or should have the legal right to secede, or has a natural right to secede, is a matter of indifference to the question of whether Texas actually has a legal right to secede. It does not. No amount of wishin or hopin or prayin alters that fact.

 

After secession Texans would not be "fellow" Americans. They would be Texans. And there's the rub. The thing about seceding is it makes a separate country.  Independence is a gee-whiz idea but you can't have it both ways. George Washington, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson are not the Founding Fathers of Texas. The Texas nation did not throw a tea party in Boston Harbor or sign the Declaration of Independence on July 4th 1776.  They don't call it The Texan Dream.  It's a lot of culture to flush.  No doubt Americans would resent them flushing it. They would resent it with religious zeal. Because to Americans America is a mystical idea. Destined. Exceptional. The Union is a manifestation of Divine Will. Secession is an act of sacrilege. I believe, and history backs me up, that anyone who tried it would be made to pay dearly. 

[superblue]

Lived there for a bit actually. Lots of sky.

 

 

of course laws can be overturned. The point is that the chances of this particular law being overturned in the next 100 years are essentially zero. 

Whether you think Texas should secede, or should have the legal right to secede, or has a natural right to secede, is a matter of indifference to the question of whether Texas actually has a legal right to secede. It does not. No amount of wishin or hopin or prayin alters that fact.

 

After secession Texans would not be "fellow" Americans. They would be Texans. And there's the rub. The thing about seceding is it makes a separate country.  Independence is a gee-whiz idea but you can't have it both ways. George Washington, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson are not the Founding Fathers of Texas. The Texas nation did not throw a tea party in Boston Harbor or sign the Declaration of Independence on July 4th 1776.  They don't call it The Texan Dream.  It's a lot of culture to flush.  No doubt Americans would resent them flushing it. They would resent it with religious zeal. Because to Americans America is a mystical idea. Destined. Exceptional. The Union is a manifestation of Divine Will. Secession is an act of sacrilege. I believe, and history backs me up, that anyone who tried it would be made to pay dearly. 

Are you serious ? The " legal right to secede " is moot in regards to a state being under the control of a tyrincal government, the " law " in regards to just willy nilly seceding  because a state doesnt like a current leader in the white house, is all that " law " is good for. At the time of the Civil War, there was no just reason to secede from the union, there was no opressive government, tides were changing the south didn't like it and the story goes on.  So the law that formed after that stands as a logical one.  And if you think Texans do not already call themselves Texans is a mistake as well. They are Texans first, Americans second.  Ask any Texan who was born an raised in Texas and has a long family history in Texas as well. Some not all Texans resent people outside the state moving in. Same for Hawaii, there is a complete sense of seperation and a different identity completely from those in the states vs those who were born an raised on the island. They are Hawaians first and Americans second.  So it isn't like our country is not already " seperated " if the geographical divide isn't enough, we have faith issues with our government, political struggles that are never ending etc.  We are simply living in the shadows of our former country is all we are doing.

 

And to think that Americans would Hate the idea of secession is not true either, https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-sc-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/KL6qrls8

 

( i am not great at finding the rest on that site ) but there are plenty of states that have Petitioned to secede , the numbers are there, and the numbers are showing that there are plenty of Americans who are tired of everything our government is and has been doing for a long time. We do not " need permission " to free ourselves from oppression . But when our only option is to go to a lame petition on a gov website, it barely gets noticed, and then scoffed at in the media the debate ends rather fast on the issue because everyone is too busy not caring, the frog in the pot is already boiling.

 

I am not really disagreeing with much that you are saying,  the crux of it all, would be the drones our government has, in the form of federal agents, and the military, people who are in some respects brain washed into doing what they are told. But to think there would be Americans turning on Americans, i seriously doubt it, I think the real fight would be against the government itself. sending in trigger happy agents and troops.

 

There wouldn't be resentment as a whole from the nation, there would be resentment from the government itself, clamouring together shoulder to shoulder, screaming traitors, terrorists, anti-americans, there would be such a lack of respect for our freedom and right to do what we feel is in our best interest. We would see a media sheepishly reporting on the facts while pumping up every speech by politicians on both sides of the table, and then some moron would eventually come up with a piece of who are they going to fight and where, and try to put fear into the situation.

 

When in reality it should go smooth and painless, with a vote such as Scottland is doing. But it will never happen not because of fear of resentment from others, but from the fear of the thought of having to fight for what one believes, and give up the comforts one has for a time being. There would be absolutely no conflict what so ever, not one person would die, IF the Government Remained Calm, and did not stir up a frenzy in the media and activate federal and military troops.

 

What is taking place with Scottland is showing how things should happen, and Texans, Hawaians , and Americans are watching closely. But that is all that will happen is watching, and rooting on Scottland to obtain their independance and identity.

[puellapaschalis]

A journalist for the Torygraph has called it No and gone to bed (I don't believe him on that last bit, this is the most fun some of the Telegraph staff have had in months).

 

Meanwhile,

 

 

(from here)

 

But then there's also (now get up and dance)

 

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSH0eRKq1lE[/youtube]

 

So apparently this is being watched by the US (Texas and generic gawping), Spain (Catalan, Basque), Germany (Bavaria), Italy (South Tyrol) Russia and the Ukraine (the Crimea)...anyone else? The Bajorans?

[puellapaschalis]

Clackmannanshire has returned a No vote. A solid Yes was predicted.

 

If you're not following it all here, you're square.

 

Dundee Count has been evacuated because of a fire alarm! Ahahahahahaha! Keep the count security now boys.

 

This is one of the rare times I wish I had a tv.

[The Bus Station]

Thanks, PP.

 

:popcorn:

[puellapaschalis]

Orkney (where the Transalpine Redemptorists are) returned No, but look at these numbers!

 

Yes: 4,883

No: 10,004

 

ORKNEY!!!! Of all places!

 

(I should go to bed)

 

Edited September 19, 2014 by puellapaschalis

[Maggyie]

The myth of the independent Texan is a fascinating one. Mostly exists in the movies. Certain Texas communities love the massive yawning federal money pits that are Fort Hood, Fort Bliss, Lackland, Sheperd, the list goes on, these are some of the largest military installations that exist in a country that invests massively in defense.

Who doesn't love the federal subsidies for tuition at their various colleges which in turn props up their football tradition.

They all loved all those juicy federal jobs NASA brought and the state legislature loves all the federal welfare money too (because then the state doesn't have to take care of its own). Basically the only time Texas doesn't like federal money is when somebody else is getting some. No offense to Texans, it's the same everywhere.

I'm betting Scotland goes with No - as emotional as this situation is, things aren't bad enough in Scotland for there to be a revolution. There's poverty but people have something to eat more or less. They are the first world. Inertia is a powerful force and in spite of the inequities I think they will decide there's more to lose by taking this risk than there is to gain.

[puellapaschalis]

I'm betting Scotland goes with No - as emotional as this situation is, things aren't bad enough in Scotland for there to be a revolution. There's poverty but people have something to eat more or less. They are the first world. Inertia is a powerful force and in spite of the inequities I think they will decide there's more to lose by taking this risk than there is to gain.

 

I'm not sure I agree with you, Maggie. This isn't a revolution, but Westminster (and much of the rest of the UK) has grossly underestimated the strength of feeling, hence the main party leaders' pathetic attempts to shore up the No vote over the past week. The UK is a wealthy country, but prices rise all the time and the wealth is in London and the South East. There are people who don't have something to eat, who don't have work and for whom there is no real prospect of employment.

 

If Scotland votes Yes* then independence will (probably) happen. It'll be an ugly affair, but that's what they vote for. But I agree with some commentators in the media that a No vote will also mean some rather far-reaching changes in how the UK works. I really wonder what the country will look like after tonight - normally I'm the queen of cynicism when it comes to political landscapes, but this kind of turnout means all bets are off.

 

*Shetland has returned No, by a margin of almost 2:1. The Western Isles have returned No.

 

Handy results page here.