Dress Code For Going To Mass

[superblue]

 I was searching the net for Religious orders and their retreat schedules etc, anyhow i noticed most do require that guests, who are visiting wear appropriate clothing for celebration of the mass and in certain areas of the Monestary / Abbey ....

 

 

So what gives ?  Why is it Religious orders have dress codes for guests  and expect them to abide by the dress code,  but regular dioceses or the church in general does not ?

 

Now granted some cultures wear what they wear because that is all they can afford, or it is a custom to wear certain attire and is not considered offensive ( what examples there are i dont know )

 

But would it be so out of line for the Church to demand for the rest of us to not dress like we are going to the beach, the club, or etc.  Is it really out of line and absurd to issue and enforce a dress code rule,  I have a bad enough attention span as it is, but when a female comes in wearing a skirt that barely covers her or other such eye catching outfits. And why is it too much to ask the male counter part to not wear shorts and flip flops....

 

 

Why is there a difference between the way attire is approached with Catholics from Religious Orders and Dioceses ?

[puellapaschalis]

Religious orders have the gumption to just say it.

[RoseOfGuadalupe]

Someone finally said it!

[fides' Jack]

I absolutely agree.

[Ice_nine]

I hate these conversations. Let me tell you why.

 

I have a lot of things on my mind, a lot of anxieties and obligations to fulfill. A seemingly infinite number of social norms and customs that are affected by folk's idiosyncratic preferences and I am supposed to manage my perception in the eyes of all of them, or at least most of them, with the way I talk, my body language, my dress especially in the context of going to Mass or some other formal event.

 

That causes a lot of stress on me, and I assume others like me. Maybe it's a weakness, I'll fully admit that possibility. But as you can see, evidenced by this long-winded post, it's something that I've thought about to the level where it takes a toll on my mental health. Again, not saying that's normal, but it's what happens to me (and I imagine I'm not the only person). I have lots of trouble dealing with how I appear and communicate socially, not just in the way I dress, but in everything else because I know people are so quick to make snap judgments and not really give you a chance to reverse that judgment.

 

With clothing it's not that "easy" either. Maybe it's easier for men, but esp for women there is so much variety and shapes of clothing to wear and every garment has different meanings to different people. If you wear flip flops to some that's irreverent, maybe to others it's humble, simple footwear, to others it must mean the weather is nice. Denim is apparently less holy than polyester. Clothes that are too tight violate chastity, clothes that are too baggy make you look like a frumpy lazy slob.

 

What bothers me about these conversations as they tend to be held by people who think there are a few easy rules that are, DUH, so self-evident, but as I touched upon things can get infinitely complicated. Again I think a lot of this is because of the sheer variety of clothing we have to choose from that is probably much different from folks in past ages. Believe you me I would very much prefer the fashion uniformity of say 1st century Palestine than what we have today.

 

I mean, I cannot be the only one, who has more weighty matters on his or her mind when I go to Mass. This is not because I'm holier than anyone, but I really feel like addressing the internal situation before I approach the God of the universe is just a tad bit more important than what I wear. The choice of clothing for something I do at least every week is literally at the bottom of the list of decisions I make. It's more or less an afterthought. I mean I try to dress nice, but I'm sure my "nice" is someone else's "smh"

 

tl;dr:

 

I'm all for dress code so long that it is not overly restrictive. If you are a person who believes that the dress code of 1950's white america is the obvious and self-evident moral set of norms, then your bias precedes you. Not saying that is anyone here, but I have encountered such people in these discussions.

 

Reasonable requests for modesty are fine, but it can be taken to the point where you make women feel bad for being women and "inciting lust" just by their mere un-burqa'd existence, and I'm not cool with that.

 

Don't look down on people who aren't wearing "nice" clothes. Maybe they struggle financially, or they choose to spend their money on more important things.

 

Don't guilt or shame people on what they wear. Most people just put on clothes consistent with cultural norms. Yes I think our culture has some terrible norms, but shaming the individuals who are just following the script will likely cause more harm than good. Perhaps a kind suggestion, if you know the person, would be better. If not, just deal with it. The world doesn't revolve around you and your preferences.

[beatitude]

I agree with Ice_nine. I think it's good to encourage people to think about what they wear to Mass. There are several churches where I live now that have a notice saying 'This is a holy place. Please dress respectfully' outside. That seems fine to me and it's nice to have a little reminder that you're going somewhere special. But we run into trouble when we get too prescriptive. There is a shrine about an hour's walk from me that doesn't even let women in if they're wearing trousers, and once I forgot about that and trekked over there in blazing desert sun as a mini-pilgrimage, in order to pray for a special intention. The monk at the gate just shook his head at me and shooed me as though I were an escaped chicken or something. I was wearing pretty nice grey trousers, ones I've worn for smart events at work, and I didn't think anybody could accuse them of looking sloppy or disrespectful - but apparently here they wouldn't cut it. That bothers me. We need to be respectful, yes, but we should also take care to avoid setting too much store by externals.

[puellapaschalis]

I agree with the two preceding, and for many similar reasons. But to be fair, all the signs and notices I've seen which are actually at churches are dispassionately neutral:

 

This is a sacred building, please dress appropriately.

This means no bare shoulders, midriffs, knees, etc.

Please act respectfully and do not speak above a whisper.

 

And so on and so forth. But then I'm in Godless Europe, so ymmv.

 

All the impassioned stuff about shoulders driving men wild with lust I come across on fora or blogs and the like (or hear from some numpty at my parish who told me after one Mass where I was wearing a flipping gorgeous-yet-modest dress, finally having a figure that would look good in it, that Padre Pio would have tossed me out of church with all the rest of my whoring sisterhood and I would have stinking* well deserved it).

 

The chance of any one person tasked with asking people to observe decency in church being even slightly aware of the issues and storms below the surface of another person's appearance are remote. Some people recognise this and can put up kind and non-vitriolic notices. Others cannot.

 

So for those who really know what a church is for and why we're there, it seems to me to be best to simply sail on past, and perhaps deal with it at the next examination of conscience. For those who don't, there is (or should be) decent catechesis. In either situation a screed on the church steps is not appropriate - but a firm and gentle reminder is.

 

*Not the actual word he used.

[Gabriela]

Yeah, these discussions never seem to end well.

[truthfinder]

Just a consideration about the difference between the two: religious orders often post these dress codes for their own chapels.  These are private chapels which they are allowing the public into.  This is very different than the parish churches where anyone can go in.  

[puellapaschalis]

Just a consideration about the difference between the two: religious orders often post these dress codes for their own chapels.  These are private chapels which they are allowing the public into.  This is very different than the parish churches where anyone can go in.  

 

I'm not sure that this difference in (legal) status leads to a difference in expected behaviour and dress.

[truthfinder]

I think it contributes to their feeling that they can mandate what goes on in their own chapels.  At parish churches, there's much more the feeling that they will be "scaring" people away with dress codes.  Further, religious orders, particularly cloistered ones, are much more used to a sense of modesty and thus today's fashions are even more shocking to them. 

[superblue]

Well i have to seriously wonder if religious orders are really shocked at the way we dress to attend mass, because they came from the same world we are still living in, and to clarify i didn't post this to start a full blown arguement, i understand where everyone is coming from and understand why some might feel irked by it being brought up.

 

But i was trying to narrow down on the difference between religious orders vs diocese,,,, i am starting to see why a diocese might not have any dress code what so ever, it causes resentment... at least to some people.

 

 

So trying to stay on track, Should religious orders conform to a lax dress code or flat out not have one ? 

 

and then i am wondering, what are the pros and cons to a dress code ? The cons are fairly easy to throw out, can cause resentment, not everyone can afford the same quality of clothing, who should judge a layperson on how they are dressed and thusly are they going to not allow that person to recieve communion... add more to it.........

 

But in other parts of the world and other religions a dress code seems to be unofficially enforced,  i doubt i personally would be welcomed very long in a temple or mosque in the middle east if i were wearing kick around clothing and or a shirt with something questionable on it .

 

Vs going to mass in the states, pretty much we wear what ever and get away with it.

 

 

Why is it for those of us who might have an issue with the way people dress at mass, actually have an issue with the way a male or female is dressed ?

 

now keep in mind this wasn't started to single people out on here, just an open debate is all, try looking at it subjectively,

 

Pros and Cons,

 

 

Or if anyone has any personal stories on how a priest or bishop has handled the issue in a parish i would find it interesting to read, we have had one person stating that they were turned away at the gate,,,  I can only imagine how hurtful the feeling must have been, not wearing anything that would acutally be considered offensive by anyone, but that religious order has a rule, and you go to encounter Christ but are rejected......

 

So who did that really benefit ? It didnt benefit the person being rejected, and it  barred a moment of prayer and personal time with Christ / God....

 

 

simple to see the cons, but what are the Pros,   more over to the pros out weigh the cons.

[puellapaschalis]

The difference between the religious and secular priesthood is that the former vows the evangelical counsels (poverty, chastity, obedience, OSBs and OPs notwithstanding) in a way that the latter does not.

 

Religious are vowed, consecrated people first and foremost, and might be ordained men. Their vocation is the intimate following and imitation of Christ according to their vows and the charism of their founder and congregation.

 

Seculars are ordained that they might assist the (successors of the) apostles in their work of proclaiming Christ to the Church and world. They do not promise poverty, and their life is not generally lived in community.

 

I don't think an issue like modesty signs on church doors has anything to do with this. Many of the ones I've seen are on cathedral and parish church doors.

[little2add]

My mom taught me to ware a  white button up shirt, with a collar,  clean pantaloons and never or no blue jeans.

Growing up was hard because we were very poor, but I always had a nice set of church clothes for Sunday.  Mostly hand-me-downs, the cloths didn't always fit

( i have 5 brothers) but they were always cleaned and ironed.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2014 by little2add

[CountrySteve937]

When it comes to clothes, we should just wear our best outfit, doesn't matter what the pricetag is on it. God doesn't care about the quality per say. Though on the other hand we shouldn;t just show up in our casual cloths; after all is not the Holy Mass the greatest event taking place in the world and is supposed to be the highlight of our week? we wouldn't show up to a graduation or wedding in casual cloths, how much more respect should we have for our Blessed Lord? 

[Ice_nine]

My mom taught me to ware a  white button up shirt, with a collar,  clean pantaloons and never or no blue jeans.

Growing up was hard because we were very poor, but I always had a nice set of church clothes for Sunday.  Mostly hand-me-downs, the cloths didn't always fit

( i have 5 brothers) but they were always cleaned and ironed.

 

Is polyester more holy than denim? I half jest, but seriously though what makes a certain fabric morally superior? Think about that.

 

That still doesn't give you a right or reason to look down on others who wear blue jeans or whose clothes aren't hot-ironed. I'm not saying that you are looking down on people, but there are those who believe "hey I was poor and/or had it rough and I was still able to do x,y, AND z, so everybody else should be able to!"

 

Perhaps one reason your mother was so adamant is that she knew that other people would look down on her and her children if y'alls dress wasn't up to snuff. The reason that people are so quick to turn their nose up at the "lessers" is more regrettable to me than coming to church with jeans and sandals (wait, didn't Jesus wear sandals?)

 

 

When it comes to clothes, we should just wear our best outfit, doesn't matter what the pricetag is on it. God doesn't care about the quality per say. Though on the other hand we shouldn;t just show up in our casual cloths; after all is not the Holy Mass the greatest event taking place in the world and is supposed to be the highlight of our week? we wouldn't show up to a graduation or wedding in casual cloths, how much more respect should we have for our Blessed Lord? 

 

Oh no. you just brought up the "wedding/meeting the president/other formal event" argument. I am grieved!

 

Here's the thing. A wedding is about the marrying couple. Meeting the president, which I wouldn't dress up for either, is about political pageantry. Going to funeral is about the deceased and their loved ones. Going to Mass though, is not about other people, it's about worshiping GOD with the community of believers. In the former examples, the even is primarily about other people. I'm not going to be a jerk and show up in jeans and a t-shirt and distract from the event. I'm going to wear a dress, begrudgingly, and wear dress shoes/sandals that hurt my feet because that's just what you do. Those are just the social norms and I blindly adhere to them just to get along in life.

 

But when going to Mass, it shouldn't be primarily about other people, but about God. Yes there are social norms for sacred spaces and I believe propriety has value to an extent, but in a highly pluralistic and individualistic society (perhaps regrettable so) "sunday best" does not have one immutable meaning, at least in the present day US.

 

My "best" outfit would probably be a dress that I have if we're talking in terms of formality, but since it wasn't made in the Victorian era, some people in church would think I'm a whore. OK, so I throw a sweatshirt over myself to cover up, but now some people think I look sloppy so now I'm a harlot AND a sloppy one at that. Oops my knees are showing, scandalous, so I'll get a longer dress, but then it drags on the ground and there's some dirt and tears on the bottom. How dare I walk around with such ratty clothes!

 

Throughout the BULK of human history and in many cultures present-day there was simply not enough variety in clothing (for non-royal folks) for there to be a difference between casual clothes and formal wear. Why then is it such a big freaking deal to wear your best? Why is the language of clothing so overanalyzed? It's honestly on the bottom of my list for daily decision making.

 

sorry if I seem over-eager. It's a soft-spot for me I guess. I have absolutely no problem with those who wear their sunday best especially if they are doing it to honor God. In fact I commend them. But to foist that standard on everyone as a rule is what gets my goat.

[Nunsense]

Not to take sides on this issue one way or the other, but just to add that when I was walking a pilgrimage on the Camino, pilgrims and tourists frequently stopped at churches along the way to admire the interiors, to take photos or to pray. Sometimes there was a Mass going on, sometimes not, but no one ever approached me about wearing cut-offs (capri length) cargo type pantaloons and very lightweight short sleeved shirts - because walking in the dust and heat of Spain made one filthy and sweaty and just plain not nice looking. A lot of the pilgrims were not even Catholic and were doing the walk for various secular or personal reasons like fitness, trying to cope with recent life changing events, etc etc. but they still wanted to see inside the churches, even if only to get out of the heat, sit awhile and soak up the atmosphere.

 

I wore the same thing every day and washed it out every night and put on my only other clean set of pantaloons and top. I carried my backpack and walking poles into all the churches with me, including the Cathedrals (and Confession) and there was never any issue with me or with any of the pilgrims. Just saying.

 

Ok, so going into a private chapel of a religious community feels different than walking with other bedraggled pilgrims, but I don't think God looked down on us any less because of our appearance. I say, show respect for the environment you find yourself in, but don't go crazy with the restrictions and prohibitions about dress codes. Sometimes even neat and clean isn't possible if one has rushed into Mass from working at a construction site, and this is the only time they can fit it in. Common sense can be really uncommon sometimes.

[Basilisa Marie]

Christ never made people change their clothes before meeting, talking with, healing them, and calling them to conversion. At the same time, for us who have an understanding and the means, we should dress nicely as a symbol of the seriousness and sacredness of what we're doing. Encouraging people to dress appropriately? Definitely. But barring them from prayer because they aren't fulfilling our cultural norms effectively places our cultural norms above imitating Christ. At least that's my humble opinion.

Edit: I think this applies to public places of worship like diocesan churches. Private chapels are more like going over to someone's home. There's more involved as far as cultivating a specific, rather than general, attitude of prayer.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Basilisa Marie

[Nihil Obstat]

:proud:

[11] And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. [12] And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. [13] Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen. 
 

[Charbel]

:heart: JMJ

 

I have a few thoughts on the matter but right now I will only say this. That, for me, when I go to mass I don't entirely notice others around me because I am focusing my interior on being with Jesus. What I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't worry about what others around you may think of you, but to dress in a way that you feel God would be pleased with (I'm sure He's happy you are there to be with Him anyways). I'm aware that this doesn't really answer the original question, these were just my humble thoughts that came up when I was reading the above posts. And also, I think it is good to remember that "For in the way that you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you" (Matthew 7:2)

 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Charbel