Pope Francis - Closing Address To Synod

[truthfinder]

Growth might be the wrong word; sanctification also needs change - aligned to the Will of God.

[BarbTherese]

Growth might be the wrong word; sanctification also needs change - aligned to the Will of God.

 

Could be the wrong word, I would not really know actually.  Growth, of course, can be in a positive or negative direction.  To be in decline (negative direction), whatever must have first been something else more positive...........i.e. change has occurred.

 

I think I did say in one of my posts that the Church does function on numerous levels and one is in holiness and the other could be said to be in alignment with God's Will, although they are intertwined.

 

Just as two only other examples of function levels, there is the functioning on the human level in administration on the hierarchical and parish levels.........there is Her relating to general and secular society.  And many other functioning levels.

 

Sanctification being wherever it might be now in order to grow, must change.  Same for alignment to God's Will.  These would be in positive directions - or more holy and more aligned with God's Will.  And quite obviously, if one is more holy than one must be more aligned to God's Will.  They are intertwined.

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[truthfinder]

Could be the wrong word, I would not really know actually.  Growth, of course, can be in a positive or negative direction.  To be in decline (negative direction), whatever must have first been something else more positive...........i.e. change has occurred.

 

I think I did say in one of my posts that the Church does function on numerous levels and one is in holiness and the other could be said to be in alignment with God's Will, although they are intertwined.

 

Just as two only other examples of function levels, there is the functioning on the human level in administration on the hierarchical and parish levels.........there is Her relating to general and secular society.  And many other functioning levels.

 

Sanctification being wherever it might be now in order to grow, must change.  Same for alignment to God's Will.  These would be in positive directions - or more holy and more aligned with God's Will.  And quite obviously, if one is more holy than one must be more aligned to God's Will.  They are intertwined.

I took growth to mean purely numerical growth of the church - which of course is great when the members are all practicing.  (numerical growth at the expense of Truth).

[BarbTherese]

Apologies truthfinder if I misled you re "growth"    This is an ironing week for me (once each fortnight I take in ironing for a week) and I am hurriedly writing between ironing.  That is only a reason, and no excuse I know.

If things are as Maggie has posted :" an exhausted, demoralized, wealthy Western church, corrupted, numbed and drugged by the soma of bourgeois respectability, in the late stages of institutional collapse?"

It might be the birth pangs of something far more positive in The Church i.e. change might be occurring and in a positive direction as the old and the corrupt struggles to survive and once spent, in fact has given birth to the new and in hope that " the new" will be in a positive direction.

 

I don't think we can know for sure.  We have to live in our now, we have no other choice since we cannot change the past nor know the future.  We must wait for the unfoldings in time to be sure.  This does not mean that we cannot put forward and anticipate from past experiences etc. what the future or the new might be.  But it can only be conditional knowledge.

Edited October 26, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[truthfinder]

Apologies truthfinder if I misled you re "growth"    This is an ironing week for me (once each fortnight I take in ironing for a week) and I am hurriedly writing between ironing.  That is only a reason, and no excuse I know.

 

No worries, you didn't mislead me; I just was thinking of negative connotations, much more a reflection of my own work right now. 

[BarbTherese]

I took growth to mean purely numerical growth of the church - which of course is great when the members are all practicing.  (numerical growth at the expense of Truth).

 

Not challenging you at all, truthfinder, just picking up on a term you used.

 

What exactly qualifies as a "practising Catholic"?  It seems to me that most take it to mean attending Mass on Sunday.  No mention whatsoever of The Sacrament of Reconciliation, nor the following of Jesus and His Gospel.   It seems to me that attending Mass on Sunday is mandatory, while Reconciliation and following of Jesus and His Gospel is optional re "practising Catholic".

 

This is another area where I seem to be able to see failure on the part of formation of the laity.  Of interest, with one (generally regarded as) fierce and staunch 'practising Catholic', when I mentioned the obligation of Reconciliation at least once yearly and to follow Jesus and His Gospel, he scoffed and called me dismissively "a D and M Catholic" which I have since discovered means "deep and meaningful" in a derogatory manner.

 

Of course, I am in Australia and an Australian and we are really pushing a barrel uphill with a secular society and a secularised mentality amongst Catholics.  What gets me is that in Sunday homilies, we hear the Gospel of the Sunday related to everyday life and this is very important, but never a whisper of even an attempt to address problems that seem to me quite evident amongst Catholics generally.  I don't know whether it is head in the sand or an out of touch-ed-ness with the fold assigned.  Of course, it just might be me!

Edited October 26, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[truthfinder]

Not challenging you at all, truthfinder, just picking up on a term you used.

 

What exactly qualifies as a "practising Catholic"?  It seems to me that most take it to mean attending Mass on Sunday.  No mention whatsoever of The Sacrament of Reconciliation, nor the following of Jesus and His Gospel.   It seems to me that attending Mass on Sunday is mandatory, while Reconciliation and following of Jesus and His Gospel is optional re "practising Catholic".

 

This is another area where I seem to be able to see failure on the part of formation of the laity.  Of interest, with one (generally regarded as) fierce and staunch 'practising Catholic', when I mentioned the obligation of Reconciliation at least once yearly and to follow Jesus and His Gospel, he scoffed and called me dismissively "a D and M Catholic" which I have since discovered means "deep and meaningful" in a derogatory manner.

 

Of course, I am in Australia and an Australian and we are really pushing a barrel uphill with a secular society and a secularised mentality amongst Catholics.  What gets me is that in Sunday homilies, we hear the Gospel of the Sunday related to everyday life and this is very important, but never a whisper of even an attempt to address problems that seem to me quite evident amongst Catholics generally.  I don't know whether it is head in the sand or an out of touch-ed-ness with the fold assigned.  Of course, it just might be me!

Ah, yes, the problem of the practicing Catholic.  I think this perception of this term as a self-identifier is starting to change.  I am a young Canadian and I've very rarely heard anyone anymore identify as "practising" who considered it going to at least half the Masses in a year (it seems to be of a certain generation.)  Even at that, if one were to go to Mass every Sunday from the time they were a child to eighteen, the sermons should have given one at least an understanding of Catholicism's rules.  If it hasn't, then it is very much the priest's fault as well.  In some ways I was very fortunate to be curious about my faith, because there were indeed some rules (including about marriage) that I didn't learn along the way from 'official' channels, although someone once did mention the precept of keeping the Church's marriage rules, but didn't explain them IIRC.  

 

I think it in general so unfortunate about bad homilists.  I've encountered a few, that I respect them, but I honestly don't know what they're trying to teach us about God or the Church because it sounds an awful lot about being good to ourselves and our neighbours, not because it is right or God demands it, but because it feels good.  The younger priests are getting better, but at the same time they seem so darn afraid to preach on anything but the reading of that week because of a narrow interpretation of various regulations.  Instead of learning what the Gospel means in regards to me working out my salvation, we might get an exegesis on the Greek - interesting but not particularly useful.  

[BarbTherese]

Ah, yes, the problem of the practicing Catholic.  I think this perception of this term as a self-identifier is starting to change.  I am a young Canadian and I've very rarely heard anyone anymore identify as "practising" who considered it going to at least half the Masses in a year (it seems to be of a certain generation.)  Even at that, if one were to go to Mass every Sunday from the time they were a child to eighteen, the sermons should have given one at least an understanding of Catholicism's rules.  If it hasn't, then it is very much the priest's fault as well.  In some ways I was very fortunate to be curious about my faith, because there were indeed some rules (including about marriage) that I didn't learn along the way from 'official' channels, although someone once did mention the precept of keeping the Church's marriage rules, but didn't explain them IIRC.  

 

I think it in general so unfortunate about bad homilists.  I've encountered a few, that I respect them, but I honestly don't know what they're trying to teach us about God or the Church because it sounds an awful lot about being good to ourselves and our neighbours, not because it is right or God demands it, but because it feels good.  The younger priests are getting better, but at the same time they seem so darn afraid to preach on anything but the reading of that week because of a narrow interpretation of various regulations.  Instead of learning what the Gospel means in regards to me working out my salvation, we might get an exegesis on the Greek - interesting but not particularly useful.  

 

Thank you, truthfinder.  It is of real interest to get another perspective and one that supports one's own.  I am taking it too you are in another country to Australia.

I am fortunate indeed, blest, to have been educated in college mainly pre V2 by Dominican nuns and probably all departments of theology were presented to us - and being Dominicans, we were also taught to think for ourselves and to express it without fear.  They certainly ensured that we knew what our Catholicism was all about and this has not changed post V2, although it seems to me that many think that it has.

I am thinking about writing to my parish priest in a very kind and gentle way making a suggestion.  "Thinking" is operative as I am a person who needs very much to not put my hand up as it were in any way.  I have been through my 'campaigning' years of 'head up' well and truly and been burnt because of those years.  At 69yrs almost, I am most happy being just a face-in-the-pew as it were and since I am, and others are not threatened by me, I do get to know what people really think without modifications. I used to have something of a motto "If you can't beat 'em, infiltrate".  I will be talking with my director about writing to my pp and why - and my own reluctance and why.  He is overseas just now in the Motherhouse of his religious order.

[truthfinder]

Best of luck to you! I can't remember how many times I huffed about writing a letter and then never did.  I plan on writing a letter now, but it is rather about the good things I experienced in a parish. I am very fortunate that I am now in parishes which celebrate the EF and consequently this has made me "calm down" a bit.  I like your motto - it's the same general outlook I have to my profession and student unions.  

[BarbTherese]

Best of luck to you! I can't remember how many times I huffed about writing a letter and then never did.  I plan on writing a letter now, but it is rather about the good things I experienced in a parish. I am very fortunate that I am now in parishes which celebrate the EF and consequently this has made me "calm down" a bit.  I like your motto - it's the same general outlook I have to my profession and student unions.  

 

 

I wont be doing anything until I talk with my spiritual director.  You are very blest to be called to a parish where you are very happy and where you can write of the good things experienced.   Ah well, The Lord always knows what He is about and why.

[HisChildForever]

I read a brief snippet that the Synod discussed artificial contraception. One remark sounded conservative and another liberal. Unfortunately I can't remember specific quotes. Does anyone have any details on this?

 

I'm bumping this...please help if you can! :)

[BarbTherese]

I can't help after a quick look on Google.  I hope someone can!

[KnightofChrist]

I'm bumping this...please help if you can! :)

 

I couldn't find the original unedited mid-term Relatio post disceptationem but I did find some articles that speak of both the battle between the Orthodox side and the Heterodox side on the issue on contraception.

 

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/francis-must-correct-synod-distortions
http://voiceofthefamily.info/wordpress/?p=344

http://www.johnthavis.com/a-stern-message-on-birth-control-at-the-synod-of-bishops#.VE4-3VkpD9U

[Amppax]

Maggie wins the thread. 

[HisChildForever]

I couldn't find the original unedited mid-term Relatio post disceptationem but I did find some articles that speak of both the battle between the Orthodox side and the Heterodox side on the issue on contraception.

 

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/francis-must-correct-synod-distortions
http://voiceofthefamily.info/wordpress/?p=344

http://www.johnthavis.com/a-stern-message-on-birth-control-at-the-synod-of-bishops#.VE4-3VkpD9U

 

Thanks!