Selling Scapulars To A Self-proclaimed "witch/pagan/etc"?

[Gabriela]

Actually, once you enter the free market place then it is wrong not to sell to a willing buyer, not to mention illegal on the macro level.  Just because you're on the micro level doesn't give you the right to discriminate against someone.

 

By this logic, it would be wrong for me to not sell a rosary to someone who sent me an email saying,

 

"Hey! I just saw the rosaries you make and I really want some for an upcoming event. I'm a Satanist and we like to hang rosaries around our ritual spaces where we desecrate the host in the most unimaginably vile and sacrilegious ways. Your glass rosaries would be perfect for smashing into the host with our combat boots. Can you send me 25 of them?"

 

What ***Catholic*** authority would recommend that you sell rosaries to this person? Even if it were illegal to deny this person the work of your hands (which it is not), such a law would be unconscionable and so not bind Catholics.

 

Judging by your posts of late, it sounds to me like your morality is grounded more in liberal economics and Randian egoism than it is in the One True Faith. How in the world you got the "Church Militant" tag I shall never understand.

 

Combined with your generally confrontational tone, the content of your posts make it my personal opinion that your posts should be censored, or that your posting rights should be altogether revoked. At the very least, your "Church Militant" tag should be removed as shockingly misleading to lurkers and passers-by on PM.

[Gabriela]

@AuthorOfMyLife: I think that you are doing the right thing, and I would not find it objectionable at all for you to sew a green scapular in between the panels of the brown one. Your goal is to convert this person, and that is a praiseworthy goal—our whole mission as Christians, actually. We have been hiding green scapulars in people's houses and belongings for over a century, and the practice has been a source of much consolation to the loved ones of pagans and of much conversion by pagans themselves, who, after the fact, were surely grateful for the intervention on behalf of their eternal souls. I think that you should follow your conscience, which is clearly well formed, and rest at ease doing whatever seems right to you in this matter.

[blazeingstar]

By this logic, it would be wrong for me to not sell a rosary to someone who sent me an email saying,

 

"Hey! I just saw the rosaries you make and I really want some for an upcoming event. I'm a Satanist and we like to hang rosaries around our ritual spaces where we desecrate the host in the most unimaginably vile and sacrilegious ways. Your glass rosaries would be perfect for smashing into the host with our combat boots. Can you send me 25 of them?"

 

What ***Catholic*** authority would recommend that you sell rosaries to this person? Even if it were illegal to deny this person the work of your hands (which it is not), such a law would be unconscionable and so not bind Catholics.

 

Judging by your posts of late, it sounds to me like your morality is grounded more in liberal economics and Randian egoism than it is in the One True Faith. How in the world you got the "Church Militant" tag I shall never understand.

 

Combined with your generally confrontational tone, the content of your posts make it my personal opinion that your posts should be censored, or that your posting rights should be altogether revoked. At the very least, your "Church Militant" tag should be removed as shockingly misleading to lurkers and passers-by on PM.

 

Well, I don't have the citations, but having gone to a decently rated business school I can assure you that any company on the free market in America protects the rights of minorities, gender, race, religion and sexuality.  Perhaps it's different in other countries.  But, America, yeah.  The recent legal battle over making wedding cakes for homosexual weddings shows that in the eyes of the law you cannot.

 

What you cannot be compelled to do is something against your religion, eg.  create a cake with two brides, sell abortofacients, create a rosary with the devil at the end, etc.  I am unsure of "by comission" work.  I only know the law for work that has been created and is in the open market.  However, given the nature of wedding cakes my guess is that taken to court you would have to create the objects the buyer requested if that is, indeed, what you are in business for.

 

Why you are not allowed to sell blessed objects is really made clear in scenarios like this.  Glass rosaries, in the end, are just beads with crosses.  If every image of Jesus had to be treated with the utmost respect, then their's going to be a bunch of youth group kids who are really, really disappointed because I'm pretty sure plastering Jesus on a tee shirt is not very respectful of His image.  This is precisely why we have blessed and unblessed objects. 

[blazeingstar]

@AuthorOfMyLife: I think that you are doing the right thing, and I would not find it objectionable at all for you to sew a green scapular in between the panels of the brown one. Your goal is to convert this person, and that is a praiseworthy goal—our whole mission as Christians, actually. We have been hiding green scapulars in people's houses and belongings for over a century, and the practice has been a source of much consolation to the loved ones of pagans and of much conversion by pagans themselves, who, after the fact, were surely grateful for the intervention on behalf of their eternal souls. I think that you should follow your conscience, which is clearly well formed, and rest at ease doing whatever seems right to you in this matter.

 

Wrong. wrong. wrong.

 

This is treating a blessed object as a magical talisman.  

 

The scapulars don't have magical powers to act alone.  What can make a difference is the person who intends to convert remembering that there is an object in Joe Pagan's home.  The object itself has no powers to change a person.

 

This is why the promises of the brown scapular have no meaning unless one actually adheres to what Mary has laid out in the depths of their heart, not just on the surface.

[AuthorOfMyLife]

Well, I don't have the citations, but having gone to a decently rated business school I can assure you that any company on the free market in America protects the rights of minorities, gender, race, religion and sexuality.  Perhaps it's different in other countries.  But, America, yeah.  The recent legal battle over making wedding cakes for homosexual weddings shows that in the eyes of the law you cannot.

 

That's too bad about the citations. I would have liked to see them. 

 

I haven't read much about the wedding cake issue, however, I would like to point out that just because something is legal doesn't make it right (abortion, anyone?), and by association, just because something is considered illegal by our government doesn't make it wrong. The courts of law have no guarantee of infallibility.

 

All I can say is, I would fight for the right NOT to make something for someone if I felt it would be abused. I don't care what the law might say--no one has the right to demand something NON-ESSENTIAL of my time, talent, and energy. (I say "non-essential" because it would be different if I were offering an essential service of say, a medical nature--If I am a doctor and Joe Pagan has heart attack, I believe I'd be obliged to give him essential health care).

 

Wrong. wrong. wrong.

 

This is treating a blessed object as a magical talisman.  

 

The scapulars don't have magical powers to act alone.  What can make a difference is the person who intends to convert remembering that there is an object in Joe Pagan's home.  The object itself has no powers to change a person.

 

This is why the promises of the brown scapular have no meaning unless one actually adheres to what Mary has laid out in the depths of their heart, not just on the surface.

 

Again, this is why I explain to people that scapulars are not amulets but sacramentals that are an aid to holiness if used with the right intent. This is also why I do not have items blessed before I sell them. I send a note with my orders letting customers know the items are not blessed, and suggesting they have a priest bless them.

[blazeingstar]

That's too bad about the citations. I would have liked to see them. 

 

I haven't read much about the wedding cake issue, however, I would like to point out that just because something is legal doesn't make it right (abortion, anyone?), and by association, just because something is considered illegal by our government doesn't make it wrong. The courts of law have no guarantee of infallibility.

 

All I can say is, I would fight for the right NOT to make something for someone if I felt it would be abused. I don't care what the law might say--no one has the right to demand something NON-ESSENTIAL of my time, talent, and energy. (I say "non-essential" because it would be different if I were offering an essential service of say, a medical nature--If I am a doctor and Joe Pagan has heart attack, I believe I'd be obliged to give him essential health care).

 

 

Again, we're talking about illegal (in US law) and feelings of conscience.  No one is forcing doctors to perform abortions. 

 

You may fight for your right not to make something, but the law would not be on your side.  I remember a case study where a man during WW2 who owned a small grocery store did not want to sell bread to a man who was using it to feed birds.  Basically, the court said that the man feeding birds was a royal arse but he had a right to purchase the bread.

 

You're talking about feelings and beliefs rather than actual law.  The law isn't infallible but if you don't like it, change it.  This blurb from legal zoom makes it pretty clear.  https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the-right-to-refuse-service-can-a-business-refuse-service-to-someone-because-of-appearance

 

So yes, you can deny the sale.  You will also be doing something illegal.  Given that you're a tiny Etsy seller, no one is probably going to care.  It dosn't make it any less illegal.  The law that protects religious beliefs is there to prevent forcing Jews from selling pizza, Catholic doctors from prescribing birth control and moslem butchers from selling pork.  You can't force someone to make a product against their beliefs

 

Now if you're speaking morally...thats where you're calling things into question.  If you claim that you have the right not to sell to someone because of their religion, that opens up a whole can of worms.  That'd be like going to Utah and only being allowed to buy bread, milk, eggs and nothing else because they don't sell non-essentials to Catholics.  A Mormon flour vendor could not refuse to sell to Eucharist makers because they were Catholic.  You just can't discriminate based on a buyer's religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2014 by blazeingstar

[Ed Normile]

I would seriously reconsider having a religious article blessed making it a sacramental item, then deceiving someone by either sending it to them or hiding it in their home. Deceit is the tool of the devil ...

 

 

ed

[Ed Normile]

 

 The law that protects religious beliefs is there to prevent forcing Jews from selling pizza, Catholic doctors from prescribing birth control and moslem butchers from selling pork.  You can't force someone to make a product against their beliefs

 

 

I guess you missed the whole Obama-care debacle ....

 

 

ed

[blazeingstar]

I guess you missed the whole Obama-care debacle ....

 

 

ed

 

Well Catholic doctors cannot be forced to prescribe birthcontrol.  Weither it must be covered under insurance is a different story and it has been appropriately challenged.

[Cherie]

Just popping in to say I LOVE YOUR STUFF!!!

Carry on! ;)

[AuthorOfMyLife]

Just popping in to say I LOVE YOUR STUFF!!!

Carry on! ;)

 

Hello, sorry for not replying earlier--I lost track of the discussion. I just want to say thank you, Cherie! You're very sweet to tell me that! :)