Centering Prayer

[marigold]

when people here speak about buddhist meditation, have they actually tried it? there are actually various forms of it.

 

or is this something like 'i heard someone say that about it'? is it some kind of 'theology by pop culture diffusion' thing, like the bad joke about the buddhist who goes to a hot dog stand and asks for the vendor to make him one with everything?

 

emptying the mind could well be applied to christian meditation, emptying the mind of all distractions, desires, frustrations. the context in which such a phrase is used is super important. 

 

Hahaha!

 

Pope Benedict XVI says in "Light of the World" (his interview with Peter Seewald) that Christian centering prayer is fine, because it doesn't attempt to "empty the mind" or focus on one's "center", as Eastern meditation does. Rather, it uses words (like the Jesus prayer) or images (like icons) to focus one's mind—whole being, really—entirely on Jesus.

 

Benny approved of that, so I'd say it's AOK. Just make sure that, wherever you go, that's what they're not doing, and not Buddhist meditation.

 

Can we talk about why folks are cherry-picking things from Orthodox tradition and using them to suit their own ends? Neither the Jesus Prayer nor icons are tools for meditation in any of the senses talked about here.

 

:unsure:

[An Historian]

when people here speak about buddhist meditation, have they actually tried it? there are actually various forms of it.

 

or is this something like 'i heard someone say that about it'? is it some kind of 'theology by pop culture diffusion' thing, like the bad joke about the buddhist who goes to a hot dog stand and asks for the vendor to make him one with everything?

 

emptying the mind could well be applied to christian meditation, emptying the mind of all distractions, desires, frustrations. the context in which such a phrase is used is super important. 

 

This is pretty much alien to the Christian spiritual tradition.  Christians don't empty themselves in meditation.  They give themselves in meditation.  We give our distractions, desires and, frustrations to God.  It's not about focusing our mind on a specific subject.  A man that spends an half hour focusing his attention would be better spent offering his inattention to God.  He'd accomplish more in that half hour than the other man would accomplish in ten years.

[Kia ora]

We give our distractions, desires and, frustrations to God.

 

 

but what is emptying if not kenosis? what is kenosis if not giving the self to the other?

 

 

 

[An Historian]

but what is emptying if not kenosis? what is kenosis if not giving the self to the other?

 

And that self-emptying isn't accomplished by pretending that we essentially don't exist.  God became man, and came to us on the terms of the Incarnation.  We're real, living, breathing and unique individuals, and God relates to us all in this unique way.  Our worries, our frustrations, our fears, our hopes, our dreams, our loves, our hatreds, our everything... He wants us to take it all and come to Him about it.  Yes, we surrender ourselves, we place it all at his feet.  But it takes an act of ours to place it at his feet.  The divinization that we experience in our relationship with God through His grace and mental prayer will not be distinct and separate from our real lives.  It animates us, it transforms us into Christ, and it effects a real influence on us.

 

All this modern talk of "emptying the mind", etc., simply comes across to me as creating a separation between man and grace, between a man and the transformation God effects in us.  It appears to create a little compartment in us for God, which restricts Him there.

 

I don't know how orthodox it is.  I'll leave that up to the more capable judgement of others.  But I will say again that there are already tried an tested methods of mental prayer that have been long practised by generations of saints.  At the very least have recourse to an established practise before giving it up for this centering prayer stuff.

[Gabriela]

My mother is a die-hard transcendental meditationist, and has been for decades. She paid for me to go learn it. The guy gave me a "mantra" (some nonsense word) to focus on while meditating, so that I could "empty my mind" of all else. Once that had happened, I was to "let the word go" and just kind of "float in consciousness", with an "empty mind". I tried this, but I was young and impatient and had "monkey mind", so I didn't last long.

 

My brother is a Buddhist doctor of acupuncture who received his degree in Eastern medicine at a Chinese school in Austin, Texas. He meditates several times a day and spends several weeks a year at Buddhist meditation centers. I once went to his local center in Asheville, North Carolina, and again the goal was to "empty my mind", though this time via my breath, without a mantra. I struggled with this, too, and my brother told me that, if it would help, I could focus on a candle flame or a mandala. I liked mandalas, so I did that. It didn't last long either.

 

Next, I started reading Christian works on prayer, and even wrote some original research on prayer. The definition of "centering prayer", I found, isn't agreed on across Christian denominations, and even within denominations, there can be confusion/disagreement about what specific behaviors the phrase "centering prayer" names. But in my experience, it has been focusing on either a word or image that "centers one in Christ" rather than in some created object or in oneself or in "nothingness". And in my experience, that is the main difference between Christian centering prayer and all these other kinds of meditation: The "center" for TM or Buddhists is nothingness/consciousness/the self, whereas for Christians, it is Christ.

 

I still have "monkey mind", so I'm not some expert on centering prayer. But this is what I understand of it.

[Gabriela]

As for the original purpose of the Jesus Prayer and icons: I don't know what they were or are to Orthodox Christians. I just know that, in Roman Catholicism, we commonly use them for the purposes stated. And I don't see anything wrong with that. I very much doubt that the originators of the Jesus Prayer and these icons would object to us using their creations in any way that helped us to draw nearer to Our Lord.

[Ice_nine]

From my skimming it seemed like the Jesus prayer had something to do with Hesychasm which is a kind of Eastern mysticism IIRC. And then it seemed to me that centering prayer was in a way based of this practice even though I'm sure folks would disagree.

 

I really enjoy learning about mysticism within Christian tradition, but perhaps centering prayer is more or less a mondernized rendition or perhaps even a bastardized form of mysticism. Idk, I obviously don't know a whole lot, but some of the info posted is interesting.

 

tanks again

[Gabriela]

From my skimming it seemed like the Jesus prayer had something to do with Hesychasm which is a kind of Eastern mysticism IIRC. And then it seemed to me that centering prayer was in a way based of this practice.

 

This is also my understanding. I thought the Jesus Prayer originated among the desert monastics to help them focus their minds, before entering into silent, contemplative prayer where they simply experienced being in the presence of God. Which is kinda' the goal of centering prayer, too, so I don't see much difference. But there are Orthodox on here who can hopefully enlighten us if we're wrong.

[marigold]

I'm going to think about it for a while :)

[Kia ora]

My brother is a Buddhist doctor of acupuncture who received his degree in Eastern medicine at a Chinese school in Austin, Texas. He meditates several times a day and spends several weeks a year at Buddhist meditation centers. I once went to his local center in Asheville, North Carolina, and again the goal was to "empty my mind", though this time via my breath, without a mantra. I struggled with this, too, and my brother told me that, if it would help, I could focus on a candle flame or a mandala. I liked mandalas, so I did that. It didn't last long either.

 

Next, I started reading Christian works on prayer, and even wrote some original research on prayer. The definition of "centering prayer", I found, isn't agreed on across Christian denominations, and even within denominations, there can be confusion/disagreement about what specific behaviors the phrase "centering prayer" names. But in my experience, it has been focusing on either a word or image that "centers one in Christ" rather than in some created object or in oneself or in "nothingness". And in my experience, that is the main difference between Christian centering prayer and all these other kinds of meditation: The "center" for TM or Buddhists is nothingness/consciousness/the self, whereas for Christians, it is Christ.

 

I still have "monkey mind", so I'm not some expert on centering prayer. But this is what I understand of it.

 

 

if your brother belongs to a form of chinese buddhism, then 'emptying your mind' would have a lot to do with the yogacara and tathagatagharba doctrines of buddha-nature. the idea is that your buddha-nature is inherently luminous, pure. the metaphor used again and again is that of a mirror. a mirror naturally reflects purely what is being shone onto it, but dust and grime has been accumulated onto it, so we need to clean it.

 

this would require coming to a non-conceptual, non-discursive knowledge. as benedictus said before with reference to christian prayer, this is a kind of knowledge without concepts or ideas.

 

they use the word prajnya for this kind of direct knowledge, as opposed to standard knowledge you might get from the conceptualising mind. it is translated often as wisdom but also realisation. realising buddha nature would be both becoming aware and making real at the same time your buddha nature.

 

i stress that the context in which a phrase is used is important. in a specifically buddhist setting, there are a variety of buddhist meditations. if your brother meant to empty your mind of its distractions, delusions, attachments by focusing your attention on something, that seems to be a kind of samatha meditation.

 

another metaphor i've seen used is that of a murky pool of water, you just let it be and the waters of your original buddha nature settles into perfect clearness. not getting your bucket and taking that water out. so quietness and stilness over forceful emptying. but perfect attention, one-pointedness of mind directed to something isn't brainless not-thinking is it!

Edited November 3, 2014 by Kia ora

[RoseOfGuadalupe]

Centering prayer is more of emptying oneself instead of filling yourself with God.

You just have to do it properly.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Fr. Thomas Dubay talks about centering prayer in his book Prayer Primer. Basically he mentions that centering prayer is bunk. Stay close to the Sacraments and Our Blessed Mother. Some people feel called to more contemplative prayer (Praying the Holy Rosary is a form of contemplative prayer and even meditating on Sacred Scripture) some feel called to vocal prayer, but essentially we are called to a high union with God, no matter your state in life...allow The Lord to lead you. Allow Him to be your strength as you journey back to the Heart of The Father.