Carmelite Liturgies

[Gabriela]

I'm curious: How are Carmelite liturgies, generally speaking?

[truthfinder]

I'm curious: How are Carmelite liturgies, generally speaking?

Could you expand a little further what you mean. Are you speaking of Masses/offices performed by the Carmelites? or are you refering the old Rite of the Holy Sepulchre and the connected Carmelite breviary?

[Gabriela]

Could you expand a little further what you mean. Are you speaking of Masses/offices performed by the Carmelites? or are you refering the old Rite of the Holy Sepulchre and the connected Carmelite breviary?

 

Sure: I'm referring to how Carmelites generally celebrate the Mass and the Office. How much emphasis do they place on it? I've visited Benedictines, who of course place a great deal of emphasis on the beauty of the liturgy. I've visited Carthusians, who have experienced significant change in their liturgy, but who still take their Office very seriously and use Gregorian chant for all the communal hours. I've visited Visitandines, who chant the Office and have a pretty "normal" NO Mass. I've been to some active houses that basically just do a parish thing. I've seen the PCC chant the Office and celebrate a very reverent but otherwise pretty normal NO Mass. The MFB, of course, uses the Byzantine Office, and their NO Mass is pretty different from the normal parish way.

 

Since Carmelites focus so much on mental prayer, I'm wondering what role the liturgy plays in their life, and how their "interpretation" of the liturgy typically manifests.

 

I know most Carmelites don't celebrate the EF Mass. I have no idea what the "old Rite of the Holy Sepulcher" is!

[truthfinder]

 

 

I know most Carmelites don't celebrate the EF Mass. I have no idea what the "old Rite of the Holy Sepulcher" is!

I'll answer this first: the Rite of the Holy Sepulchre was the name of the Carmelite version of the EF.  There are only two monasteries in the world (that I know of) that use this liturgy.  Several religious orders had their own versions of the Roman Rite.  The OCDs gave up this rite at Trent and the OCarms did at Vat II.  

 

From my experience, Carmelites seem to be all over the place in how they celebrate Mass.  Some are extremely reverant and chant when possible.  We've also got to remember that St. Teresa did not want polyphany and extravagant chanting.  Others seem to be typical of what you'd get at a parish (and I think maddeningly so).  The Nuns are often at the mercy and whim of their presider and usually feel they are lucky if they're getting a Mass.  Far from the days when every convent had a priest assigned just to it.  

 

The Friars also seem all over the place from rather on the more traditional end (of the OF; the exception is mentioned above). Some are more on the more lively end.  It also is very dependent on what province they are from.  Cultural and ideological influences have definitely made an affect, not only on the Carmelites but on the other friars' orders as well. 

[Gabriela]

I'll answer this first: the Rite of the Holy Sepulchre was the name of the Carmelite version of the EF.  There are only two monasteries in the world (that I know of) that use this liturgy.  Several religious orders had their own versions of the Roman Rite.  The OCDs gave up this rite at Trent and the OCarms did at Vat II.  

 

From my experience, Carmelites seem to be all over the place in how they celebrate Mass.  Some are extremely reverant and chant when possible.  We've also got to remember that St. Teresa did not want polyphany and extravagant chanting.  Others seem to be typical of what you'd get at a parish (and I think maddeningly so).  The Nuns are often at the mercy and whim of their presider and usually feel they are lucky if they're getting a Mass.  Far from the days when every convent had a priest assigned just to it.  

 

The Friars also seem all over the place from rather on the more traditional end (of the OF; the exception is mentioned above). Some are more on the more lively end.  It also is very dependent on what province they are from.  Cultural and ideological influences have definitely made an affect, not only on the Carmelites but on the other friars' orders as well. 

 

Okay, this is very helpful. Thank you!

 

Out of curiosity: Which two parishes celebrate the Rite of the Holy Sepulcher?

 

And where are the Carmels that celebrate the EF?

[truthfinder]

Okay, this is very helpful. Thank you!

 

Out of curiosity: Which two parishes celebrate the Rite of the Holy Sepulcher?

 

And where are the Carmels that celebrate the EF?

They're not parishes: they're two male monastic communities.  I can't remember where the one is located (it's in the US); the other is the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming (Mystic Monk Coffee).  The latter are also unique as being monastic carmelites rather than friars - same with the Carmelite Hermits in Texas.  Carmelite friars were supposed to be active preachers; they have gone back to the more monastic/hermitic tradition.

 

The biggest OCD nuns that celebrate the EF are the JMJ Carmels.  The others are from what I know on a sort of adhoc basis.  They have it because a priest can come out and say it. (Therefore entering there just because they have the EF now does not mean they'll have the EF in the future.)

[Gabriela]

They're not parishes: they're two male monastic communities.  I can't remember where the one is located (it's in the US); the other is the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming (Mystic Monk Coffee).  The latter are also unique as being monastic carmelites rather than friars - same with the Carmelite Hermits in Texas.  Carmelite friars were supposed to be active preachers; they have gone back to the more monastic/hermitic tradition.

 

The biggest OCD nuns that celebrate the EF are the JMJ Carmels.  The others are from what I know on a sort of adhoc basis.  They have it because a priest can come out and say it. (Therefore entering there just because they have the EF now does not mean they'll have the EF in the future.)

 

Oops! "Parishes" was a typo!

 

"The JMJ Carmels"? Are there several? Do they have websites?

[Chiquitunga]

They're not parishes: they're two male monastic communities.  I can't remember where the one is located (it's in the US); the other is the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming (Mystic Monk Coffee).  The latter are also unique as being monastic carmelites rather than friars - same with the Carmelite Hermits in Texas.  Carmelite friars were supposed to be active preachers; they have gone back to the more monastic/hermitic tradition.

 

I think you mean the O.Carm. Hermits in Lake Elmo, MN although they are only using some elements of it, http://www.decorcarmeli.com/Vocations/Hermits.htm They are chaplains to the OCD nuns next door to them by the way.

 

This new community from Brazil has the full O.Carm. Liturgy though, http://www.eremitaecarmeli.org/ (okay the site seems to be down) another one, http://carmelotradicional.blogspot.com/

 

That's right about the Carmelite Monks in WY being very unique, although regarding the O.Carm. Hermits in Texas, it was always within the tradition of Carmel to have Carmelite Friars & Hermits (But I'm not exactly sure on the distinction and history of this. I know there were OCD Friars though who were able to live the life of a hermit like Padre Cadete) But that's right, there were never Carmelite Monks, living a contemplative monastic life in community, like the Nuns. The Carmelite Monks of WY are really like a mix of Carmelites and Benedictines, I heard one priest comment. 

 

Yeah, the Carmels of JMJ have the O.Carm. breviary and the Traditional Latin/EF Mass most of the time (will elaborate on that in next post). I have heard of the Morristown, NJ Carmel (http://carmelmorristown.com/) is now also using the O.Carm. Office (they are friends with the Elysburg Carmel) and has the Traditional Latin Mass a few times a week.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Chiquitunga

[truthfinder]

Thanks Chiqui! I was hoping you'd comment. 

Gabriela, there are three JMJ Carmels - Valparaiso, Elysburg, and Kensington. (But I wouldn't be surprised if there are new foundations made within the next couple years).  The nuns' themselves don't run websites; the Elysburg's nuns have a site run by others: http://friendsofcarmeljmj.org/

Kensington has a blog that is run only to post Mass times, and there is a very outdated website for Valparaiso that I don't have the time to track down. 

[Chiquitunga]

"The JMJ Carmels"? Are there several? Do they have websites?

 

Yeah, those are the Carmels of Jesus, Mary & Joseph. There are lots of discussions on them in the "Phatican Archives" here. There are a few old threads titled Carmel of Jesus, Mary & Joseph, but then there is a lot of disucssion about them all over the place :topsy: but especially in the Carmelite threads :like:

 

There are three, and very soon I am guessing, four...

 

Valpariaso, NE (2001)   Traditional Latin Mass/EF always except on Wednesdays (though during the Summer it is always EF I heard)

Elysburg, PA (2009)      Traditional Latin Mass/EF always

Kensington, CA (2012)  http://carmelites-of-kensington.blogspot.com/

 

There's lots (poor grammar sorry, lol!) to be said about them, but I better get to sleep for now :sleep2: I think you'll find plenty in the archives though.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Chiquitunga

[Gabriela]

This has been super helpful, ladies. Thank you both!

 

If anyone has visited Elysburg, I'd really like to hear impressions about the quality and nature of formation and the overall health of the community.

[Chiquitunga]

Yes, it's a very good community with a lot of vocations. I know a few priests who know Mother Stella-Marie well and highly recommend that community in particular because of that. I heard they have 21 nuns now, so they may end up making a foundation themselves someday. I believe their age limit is 35 and for Externs it is 40. I don't think they have any Externs yet though. I haven't heard very much recent news on them though, mostly from the Friends of Carmel JMJ site.

[Chiquitunga]

just remembered this thread falling asleep, better post not or I'll forget :like:  :sleep3: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/133019-discalced-carmelite-nuns-gregorian-chant-questions/

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

I know I'm sidetracking a bit but I'm always curious as to a Carmelite monastery making a foundation when they reach about 21 nuns and most of the nuns are new in profession. In a Dominican monastery we would be sure that the sisters have some years rooted in an established monastery before going off to found a new one. I wonder how that plays out with the Carmelite monasteries? OK, back on topic!

[Chiquitunga]

That's a good comment and question :like: Yes, it is the same for Carmel. When a new foundation is made, they are always careful to send nuns who have been professed a number of years. To both the PA and CA foundations, Valparaiso sent nuns that had been with them as far back as Cristo Rey in San Francisco.

 

But as for Elysburg itself now making a foundation because they are at 21 nuns, well that's just me guessing that probably someday they will, but that is probably some years away. I believe for them to go over 21 though, they do have to have plans on a foundation. I'm not sure how many years away it can be though. I couldn't find anything about that in the Constitutions after checking :think:

[truthfinder]

These nuns also seem to build up several extra sisters when they are preparing to make a new foundation.  I think they had 33 at one point before Elysburg was founded.  Chiqui, you stated that when Elysburg was founded, they were all nuns who had been professed several years: do you mean finally professed, or temporary? I'm asking because I'm positive there were several white veils, but I may be mistaken.  Also, I believe the Constitutions allows for 24 nuns if a new foundation is being prepared (at least that what I was told when I visited a newly built convent a few years back.)

[Chiquitunga]

These nuns also seem to build up several extra sisters when they are preparing to make a new foundation.  I think they had 33 at one point before Elysburg was founded.  Chiqui, you stated that when Elysburg was founded, they were all nuns who had been professed several years: do you mean finally professed, or temporary? I'm asking because I'm positive there were several white veils, but I may be mistaken.  Also, I believe the Constitutions allows for 24 nuns if a new foundation is being prepared (at least that what I was told when I visited a newly built convent a few years back.)

 

Oh, yes, there were definitely Novices/First Professed (not sure how many of each) and also a postulant as part of the founding group at Elysburg, https://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/3885366205/in/set-72157622233735714/

 

I was saying there that to both Elysburg and Kensington, nuns (Solemn Professed of many years) who had been with them since Cristo Rey (which they left in 1988) were sent, but not only them. Also newly Solemn Professed nuns as well. But I know each Carmel has at least a couple nuns who have been professed for a long time.

 

I believe the requirement for a new foundation is that five Solemn Professed have to go. That is the number I seem to always see in new OCD nuns' foundations, including from years past like pictures of the founding members in that Carmel in the United States book. And there are usually white veils with them, and I have seen postulants as well. 

 

It looks like Traverse City was founded with just two black veils, https://picasaweb.google.com/112954809546652959393/CarmelOfTheInfantJesusOfPragueTraverseCityMI#5055937820225624978  But then a couple of those white veils are probably/may be final professed Lay Sisters. They were founded from Grand Rapids, where there were a lot of vocations, and they made several foundations. So Valparaiso is like them today.

 

That is interesting to hear about 24 nuns allowed if a new foundation is being planned. I wonder if maybe that number is in the new Constitutions, because I cannot find it in the old ones.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Chiquitunga

[truthfinder]

Thanks Chiqui, you confirmed a lot of what I was thinking.  And yes, the 24 nuns would be 1991 constitutions (that's what that community follows). 

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

5 solemnly professed is canon law. We have to have a minimum of 5 solemnly professed but to be an autonomous monastery there must be 9 and that number of nuns has to be maintained for at least 10 years.

A Dominican monastery takes more nuns to function due to our manner of government and liturgical life.