Lay People With Pectoral Cross? Annoying?

[beatitude]

But it's not clear at all. What looks like an ostentatiously large cross to you may not look ostentatious at all to somebody else. It may also be that the cross is a treasured family possession that someone got from their grandparents or something that reminds them of a particular pilgrimage. It could be anything. It's a definite problem if you are looking at someone and making an automatic judgment about what they must be thinking just based on their clothes or the size of their jewellery, whereas the problem you are attributing to them - lack of humility - is just speculation on your part.

[truthfinder]

I know several people in secular third orders as well as lay missionaries who were invested in their large crosses. It's their habit. I wouldn't wear a large cross myself, but I do like seeing a visible witness to the faith. In times past religious brothers would often get confused for a priest, and they would have to respond charitably that they weren't. Same principle here. 

[veritasluxmea]

​This

A laywoman wants to cover her head during mass. fine. in mass you should be praying. she isn't disturbing or distracting anyone.

A layperson wants to wear a giant cross. Not OK - why can they not wear a small cross? or a normal sized one? clearly they want to say "LOOK AT ME!!!! I AM SOOOO HOLY". it is confusing to the faithful too, if they are an EMHC and look like a priest or bishop. A huge attention seeking cross when a small one would suffice is a lack of humility.

​You could spin this around and say the same about crosses. mass is for prayers, and large crosses aren't disturbing or distracting anyone (except for you, it seems?). 

Some people think veils are disturbing and distracting- and trying to say, "Look at me, I veil, aren't I holy!" why can't the women just wear a small hat? or not veil like most other people? wearing a veil when most people don't is a lack of humility (some would say). 

My point is, this is ridiculous. Sure, there's room for discussion about ugly crosses or how to practice veiling, but at the end of the day it's just discussion. Priests and bishops wear liturgical vestments during the mass so I don't see how you could confuse them with a layperson. 

[Basilisa Marie]

What's EMHC? Here at my parish we have the priest the deacon and ministers of the eucharist giving ash.

​Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. Aka the proper name of lay "eucharistic ministers."  

[Basilisa Marie]

It's one thing to have a personal preference about sacramentals like crosses and veils. But if you get distracted by them at Mass, that's your problem, not theirs. 

I have no idea how one could confuse a EMHC with a priest or a bishop at mass. Priests wear vestments! Lay people don't! If your priest isn't wearing any vestments for mass, you've got bigger fish to fry than big ugly cross necklaces. 

[AccountDeleted]

​You could spin this around and say the same about crosses. mass is for prayers, and large crosses aren't disturbing or distracting anyone (except for you, it seems?). 

Some people think veils are disturbing and distracting- and trying to say, "Look at me, I veil, aren't I holy!" why can't the women just wear a small hat? or not veil like most other people? wearing a veil when most people don't is a lack of humility (some would say). 

My point is, this is ridiculous. Sure, there's room for discussion about ugly crosses or how to practice veiling, but at the end of the day it's just discussion. Priests and bishops wear liturgical vestments during the mass so I don't see how you could confuse them with a layperson. 

​There is so much to get distracted by at Mass if one allowed it. I can get distracted by the perfume of the woman sitting next to me, or the fidgets of a child who can't stop kicking the back of my seat or (especially at American Masses), the whole 'let's hold hands' thing during the Our Father or the kiss of peace. But isn't it kind of up to me to work on this for myself, rather than blaming everyone else around me?

I mean, the world wasn't created just for me alone (was it?). Sometimes I forget this and then everywhere I go I notice little irritations involving other people who don't understand that my comfort is much more important than their own (what is wrong with these people?). The thing is, that in our perfect world, no one would ever cause us discomfort or distress or distraction, but it isn't 'our' world, it's God's, and He loves everyone. The more we can focus on the love within ourselves (and not on the seemingly irritating behavior of those around us), the easier it is for us to not only ignore the bad stuff, but to actually see the good stuff. The perfumed lady might be a real sweetheart, and the fidgety child probably has a gorgeous smile or laugh, and the whole 'hand holding' thing seems to bring a lot of joy to many people. And the lady with the lace mantilla or the EMHC with the large crucifix - so what? So I can endure my own small discomforts for an hour at a time, can't I? Love God, love each other.

[4LoveofJMJ]

Oh gosh so many posts that I've wanted to quote so I will just do an over all post.

I veil and while it may attract the attention of others, I try to be as considerate as possible to those around me by not wearing a big flashy veil. Having blonde hair, I can't exactly have it match my hair but I try to make it look appropriate anyway. Besides, if I was to match everyone else around me at my parish, I would be wearing gym clothes! I shouldn't have to worry about what everyone else thinks so long as I am being respectful and doing it in honour of God. As to whether it is scandalous or not, anything can be scandalous to those who aren't informed of some traditions. It provides a chance to inform and evangelize.

As to the idea of wearing a veil because I feel like I am "holier then thou" is completely wrong! There is incredible pressure on not wearing a veil, much more then one would expect. I have found that when I think of what people must think of me wearing the veil, it humbles me. It makes me question if I am doing my all for God or not. It challenges me to try harder.

Now before you guys go all of on "oh why do you need a physical reminder instead of just trying harder by yourself" tangents, I need to say that I may not have come to this realization and challenge if it weren't for the veil. It helps having a constant reminder.

[AccountDeleted]

Oh gosh so many posts that I've wanted to quote so I will just do an over all post.

I veil and while it may attract the attention of others, I try to be as considerate as possible to those around me by not wearing a big flashy veil. Having blonde hair, I can't exactly have it match my hair but I try to make it look appropriate anyway. Besides, if I was to match everyone else around me at my parish, I would be wearing gym clothes! I shouldn't have to worry about what everyone else thinks so long as I am being respectful and doing it in honour of God. As to whether it is scandalous or not, anything can be scandalous to those who aren't informed of some traditions. It provides a chance to inform and evangelize.

As to the idea of wearing a veil because I feel like I am "holier then thou" is completely wrong! There is incredible pressure on not wearing a veil, much more then one would expect. I have found that when I think of what people must think of me wearing the veil, it humbles me. It makes me question if I am doing my all for God or not. It challenges me to try harder.

Now before you guys go all of on "oh why do you need a physical reminder instead of just trying harder by yourself" tangents, I need to say that I may not have come to this realization and challenge if it weren't for the veil. It helps having a constant reminder.

​

 

I was thinking about this very thread today on the bus. And you are right. No one can know the motivations of another person or what is helpful to them in their spiritual journey. To imagine that someone is trying to be holier than thou or to attract attention really misses the point in a way and says something about our own state of mind. Before I became a Catholic, I was into Eastern mysticism and one of the sayings that we used was 'I see myself in you.'  A brief explanation of this is that sometimes another person can be a mirror for us. If we see them as arrogant, perhaps it is our own arrogance that we see reflected in them. As none of us are perfect mirrors, this isn't always true, of course. But I have noticed in myself that if I assign an unworthy motivation to someone else, it might just be that I am reacting to something that I see in myself. 

For example, if I look at someone and think 'Look how they want the attention. They want everyone to think they are holy!' Well, perhaps there is a little voice in me that is really saying "Hey, I want people to know that I am really holier than that person because I am too humble to wear something that attracts attention to myself." I know it sounds convoluted but human beings are very complex creatures. If we are focusing on the motivations of someone else, it might just be that we have some insecurity of our own.

As for drawing attention - there are various reasons that people do this and not everything that draws attention is meant to do so. As ForLoveofJMJ said, the motivation (in her mind) is a reminder of God and it helps her. I know posters on phatmass who have said that they wear a large crucifix all the time or a Rosary attached to their belt, etc. For them, it might be because they are proud of their faith and want others to know it, as a sort of evangelization. Do they attract attention? Yes, of course. But what's wrong with that? It isn't always about vanity or arrogance. Sometimes wanting to be noticed is a perfectly healthy thing. Do we criticize athletes or musicians who attract attention? No, we admire them. I can't find the actual quote from Alan Watts that I loved but it was along the lines of 'Being arrogant and being humble are both games. Being arrogant is more fun.'

Now I don't mean by this that humility is wrong - just that we can get way caught up in false humility, thinking that unless we make ourselves invisible, we are full of pride. It all comes back down to motivation and intent. A person who wears a mantilla or a large Crucifix is no less humble than one who wears no accessories. Even if they were completely full of pride and did want everyone to think they were holier than everyone else - so let 'em. They might fool a few people, but God knows the score. Let 'em be. If we let it bother us, it's  is really more our problem than theirs. 

[superblue]

 I would post this else where but since the topic seems more about complaining in general I figured why not here.....

 

The one thing growing up that never mattered to me was the social noise before during and after mass,  and now that I have finally been able to experience praying in silence in our perpetual adoration , and with the Benedictines I am discerning with, I find the social noises before, during and after mass rather sad over all, and slightly distracting. I say only slightly distracting because I am learning to tune out the talkers around me, which isn't easy all the time, but when it does happen, when I go from hearing about someones medical problems, or the latest game, or other gossip, to it becoming like a murmer in the distance then I realize I am getting the hang of tuning people out.  I do feel some what sad for everyone in general, because it is almost as if the physical presence of the Church means nothing until the music starts to play and the priest begins to proceed to the altar.  I only get really upset when things are so loud that my mother gets so upset because she can longer tune people out and then I get upset cause she got upset an then I am working on calming her down....  Anyhow I don't think all is lost because of the distractions, I mean how many children started out like ourselves an have then turned around to realizing how real Christ is, an start up on a path to a religious vocation in the Church. 

 

The only real thing I can not master is that of smell, if someone has horrible B.O, or some old person passes a SBD one in front of me, forget it , stick a fork in me cause I am done, I either have to move, or wait for the smell to dissipate so I can get back to the mass.

 

It would be the equivalent of someone walking in with tear gas popping it open or a smoke canister an then be like just ignore it,  at some point enough is enough an ya have to move or bite the bullet an speak up as polite as possible. ( not just in regard to smells )

[beatitude]

Oh gosh so many posts that I've wanted to quote so I will just do an over all post.

I veil and while it may attract the attention of others, I try to be as considerate as possible to those around me by not wearing a big flashy veil. Having blonde hair, I can't exactly have it match my hair but I try to make it look appropriate anyway. Besides, if I was to match everyone else around me at my parish, I would be wearing gym clothes! I shouldn't have to worry about what everyone else thinks so long as I am being respectful and doing it in honour of God. As to whether it is scandalous or not, anything can be scandalous to those who aren't informed of some traditions. It provides a chance to inform and evangelize.

As to the idea of wearing a veil because I feel like I am "holier then thou" is completely wrong! There is incredible pressure on not wearing a veil, much more then one would expect. I have found that when I think of what people must think of me wearing the veil, it humbles me. It makes me question if I am doing my all for God or not. It challenges me to try harder.

Now before you guys go all of on "oh why do you need a physical reminder instead of just trying harder by yourself" tangents, I need to say that I may not have come to this realization and challenge if it weren't for the veil. It helps having a constant reminder.

​I used to wear a mantilla when I lived in a different area, but I found the amount of negative judgments I received too off-putting. It was also affecting my ability to get involved in parish life; I volunteered to be a catechist and the priest said very politely that he'd already found someone else. The following week, the ad for a volunteer catechist was still in the parish newsletter. Now, it could be that Father had just forgotten to take it out. I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one, especially as I liked him very much. But I couldn't squash every tiny hint of suspicion, especially as I knew that other people were reading me as very traditional due to my mantilla and (ironically) likely to be judgmental. This isn't just paranoia on my part; I overheard one woman saying so to a good friend of mine. This woman had never spoken to me above twice in her life and we'd only discussed recipes when she had, so I don't see how she could reasonably have come to that conclusion, unless I was too forceful in suggesting that she try some coconut milk in her curry. Now I'm part of a secular institute whose charism is inspired by the hidden life of Jesus at Nazareth, before he began his public ministry, and I've decided that a scarf or a hat is more in keeping with the simplicity and discretion that are emphasised in our constitutions. But the reaction I got when wearing the mantilla has stayed with me and it still frustrates me sometimes.

There was a valuable lesson for me in that. Now, if I see something that irritates me at Mass and my immediate reaction is uncharitable, I apologise to God and ask for Him to guide me back to prayer. I like the opening of the Rule of St Benedict, where Benedict suggests that we ask God to perfect everything that we begin. I do this when I start to pray and again if I feel any annoyance intruding or hasty judgments popping up. I offer these up on the spot. This doesn't stop me from being irritated at people right away, but it does remind me that the annoyance is my responsibility and not something to indulge in.

[AccountDeleted]

 I would post this else where but since the topic seems more about complaining in general I figured why not here.....

 

The one thing growing up that never mattered to me was the social noise before during and after mass,  and now that I have finally been able to experience praying in silence in our perpetual adoration , and with the Benedictines I am discerning with, I find the social noises before, during and after mass rather sad over all, and slightly distracting. I say only slightly distracting because I am learning to tune out the talkers around me, which isn't easy all the time, but when it does happen, when I go from hearing about someones medical problems, or the latest game, or other gossip, to it becoming like a murmer in the distance then I realize I am getting the hang of tuning people out.  I do feel some what sad for everyone in general, because it is almost as if the physical presence of the Church means nothing until the music starts to play and the priest begins to proceed to the altar.  I only get really upset when things are so loud that my mother gets so upset because she can longer tune people out and then I get upset cause she got upset an then I am working on calming her down....  Anyhow I don't think all is lost because of the distractions, I mean how many children started out like ourselves an have then turned around to realizing how real Christ is, an start up on a path to a religious vocation in the Church. 

 

The only real thing I can not master is that of smell, if someone has horrible B.O, or some old person passes a SBD one in front of me, forget it , stick a fork in me cause I am done, I either have to move, or wait for the smell to dissipate so I can get back to the mass.

 

It would be the equivalent of someone walking in with tear gas popping it open or a smoke canister an then be like just ignore it,  at some point enough is enough an ya have to move or bite the bullet an speak up as polite as possible. ( not just in regard to smells )

​I have moved seats when the perfume was so strong that I started to sneeze. I don't like to do it immediately as I don't want to hurt feelings, but I can usually tell if it's just going to be a slight distraction or if it's going to be unbearable. I haven't had to deal with bad BO or other smells in Mass but I did get on an elevator once with a guy who reeked of garlic - it was coming out his pores! And I was trapped with him for floors!

The whole social chit chat thing has always been difficult for me too, and that's why I loved Mass in the convent so much. The nuns would sit in silence before Mass, or we would stand silently outside the choir ready to process in for Terce before Mass started. Nothing more blessed than silence and I am still a hermit at heart. But for many people, going to Mass is part of their cultural/social life. They get a sense of belonging from being able to connect with the other people. I think it comes down to the types of people we are. The old introvert/extrovert thing has some merit. Some people receive energy from being around others, while some people feel drained after too much social interaction.  Maybe it should be all about God, but we are human beings after all - with a variety of differences.

We all come closer to God in different ways, some of us through silence or solitude, and some of us through our relationships with others. Maybe that's why Jesus told us two commandments - love God, love each other. I find the first one easier than the second and need to get a big fill up from the first in order to even manage the second! And yet I know some people who can't bear silence or sitting still for very long. They get to know God by loving others first. Didn't St John ask if we couldn't love our brother whom we have seen how can we love God, whom we haven't seen? Well, I'm the opposite to John. How can I love my neighbor who drives me nuts sometimes, unless I am filled with the love of God and let Him do it for me? LOL

 

 

[oratefratres]

Why do girls wear lacy mantillas? The traditional covering was an opaque scarf, then later,  a hat.

Certainly something transparent, made out of a fabric which was traditionally very expensive and rarely used, and does not cover the hair, and in fact, looks rather like a pair of pant s, seems to fail at the purpose.

If I saw a girl wearing a mantilla I would think she was holier than thou, wants to stand out and is a 'rad trad'. If I saw a girl with an opaque scarf covering, or even a hat, I would think she was more normal.

As for mistaking EMHC with giant pectoral crosses, for priests, other priests who are not celebrating  sometimes wear a dark suit with a cross.

[AccountDeleted]

Why do girls wear lacy mantillas? The traditional covering was an opaque scarf, then later,  a hat.

Certainly something transparent, made out of a fabric which was traditionally very expensive and rarely used, and does not cover the hair, and in fact, looks rather like a pair of pantaloons, seems to fail at the purpose.

If I saw a girl wearing a mantilla I would think she was holier than thou, wants to stand out and is a 'rad trad'. If I saw a girl with an opaque scarf covering, or even a hat, I would think she was more normal.

As for mistaking EMHC with giant pectoral crosses, for priests, other priests who are not celebrating  sometimes wear a dark suit with a cross.

​Mantillas are originally Spanish in origin but they made their way to this country and have long been associated with Catholic women who want to veil. They are small enough to carry in a handbag and they pop on and off easily. They aren't expensive these days and they come in a variety of colors and can me handmade. 

Probably for me the essential thing here is not to focus on other people, but on the content of the Mass, sacred scripture, liturgy and our own state before God. If someone wants to appear holier than thou (though we can not really judge the interior state of another person), it's their business. It's no skin off my nose, is it? I have enough faults and weaknesses of my own not to be looking for them in others. (twigs and logs in eyes, right?) I think Jesus was very clear about this topic, especially when he said that those who are without sin should cast the first stone. Are any of us really so holy that we can judge the holiness of others?

[oratefratres]

​Mantillas are originally Spanish in origin but they made their way to this country and have long been associated with Catholic women who want to veil. They are small enough to carry in a handbag and they pop on and off easily. They aren't expensive these days and they come in a variety of colors and can me handmade.

Probably for me the essential thing here is not to focus on other people, but on the content of the Mass, sacred scripture, liturgy and our own state before God. If someone wants to appear holier than thou (though we can not really judge the interior state of another person), it's their business. It's no skin off my nose, is it? I have enough faults and weaknesses of my own not to be looking for them in others. (twigs and logs in eyes, right?) I think Jesus was very clear about this topic, especially when he said that those who are without sin should cast the first stone. Are any of us really so holy that we can judge the holiness of others?

​Yes but how long have they been tradition? the traditional covering sis the scarf or hat. the scriptural reason is to cover the hair, which a short lacy cap doesn't. Patristically, the reason was modesty, and the veil described was opaque and covered the hair and neck. A lacy veil, therefore, can only possibly be worn by a women who shuns a proper haircovering  (which actually covers the hair) or even a normal scarf or hat (which would cover ones head yet be normal) , in favour of something worn out of vanity and to draw attention.

[oratefratres]

If you are a layperson who wears a giant cross or something else which deliberately is ostentatious and makes you stand out, why do you do it?