When guys come along..

[MarysLittleFlower]

I was suggesting that the guy might be a guardian angel testing your resolve, and every time he asks you, your resolve gets even stronger to the consecrated life.

haha I thought you meant his guardian angel directs him to me.. 

[Maggyie]

MLF, it seems clear you want a religious vocation very badly. While it's ok to have desires, and it's really a good thing - realize that this is not the critical thing. What would you do if you discovered you didn't have a vocation to religious life? Is such a prospect a bit scary to you because of the changes in your self-perception, identity and lifestyle it would involve? your reaction to him seems to have more fear in it than peace. 

[vee]

This thread reminds me of a little story that is probably no help at all but it does involves guys and discerning.

Im a revert so dated, working woman etc blah blah, then felt a call to religious life and was like huh what the heck.  My spiritual director told me to at least go meet some nuns so I did.  I had no clue what to expect, never met a nun before, let alone those weirdo cloistered kind   There I had an open heart and I met God and had some nice consolations that would prepare me for the desolations to come.  So here I am on the plane home from that wonderful holy, God filled time and the guy sitting next to me started hitting on me like crazy.  He was good looking but kinda off, for example he wasnt wearing shoes! he claimed he had glass in his foot or something O.o so appearance yes character no!!

   

 

[marigold]

I think your resolve is commendable, MLF. I do understand that you often have to be a bit 'blunt' to stay on the narrow path - it's not for nothing that Orthodox spiritual literature is filled with images of arenas and soldiers and fighting the good fight. In fact, in a lot of writings about monastics will say he or she was 'struggling' or 'labouring' in this or that monastery. 'The kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.' It is good to be resolved to follow the Lord, and part of that involves being able to be frank with yourself about what you are experiencing.

For myself, I knew I wanted to be a nun, then had a very good relationship, and eventually kept on the path of becoming a nun. God forbid my life ever be a blueprint for someone else's, but I'm just saying that for me it ended up being a brilliant experience in human love, which I think better equipped me for monastic life. God is merciful and wants us whatever we are doing.

[marigold]

I wanted to add: It might be beneficial (or might not, you tell me) to think about the fact that in the Orthodox Church, we consider monasticism much more in terms of a choice than a calling. 'I have chosen to dedicate myself to God in the monastic life', rather than 'I think and/or hope God has decided this for me and I have to try and figure it out.' I'm not denigrating the latter, but for me, certainly, it is a huge relief to think of it in terms of my choice. It makes it easier to stay dedicated! Some of our best saints went through terrible struggles to maintain their choice to be dedicated to God above all else. It's ok to struggle - it means good things are happening!

[MarysLittleFlower]

MLF, it seems clear you want a religious vocation very badly. While it's ok to have desires, and it's really a good thing - realize that this is not the critical thing. What would you do if you discovered you didn't have a vocation to religious life? Is such a prospect a bit scary to you because of the changes in your self-perception, identity and lifestyle it would involve? your reaction to him seems to have more fear in it than peace. 

i only have peace when I think or pray about religious life or belonging only to Christ... When I offered myself in this way it was with much joy. I read that a person can feel peaceful during prayer and fearful other times about situations and that's normal but you look at how you feel during prayer. . I think I should clarify though, to answer your question if I'm not called to religious life I would just make private vows or something else and live I'm the world. Religious life is not the main thing for me... Its belonging exclusively to Christ. The reason I felt disturbed after was because I thought, does this mean God doesn't want the self offering and promise that I made? See I have spent 6 or more years relating to God in this way. At this point and after committing myself to it so strongly, the idea of having to just turn it off is painful. I did read from Fr Thomas Dubay that someone who made such a decision and is seriously discerning would have to do a lot of violence to her heart to switch to looking at marriage... Because its like your heart is given. How do you take it back? That is impossible.. The only provision I ever made was God's Will. The reason I did all this was because I believed I was cooperating with graces during prayer. At times I had fear its only my will - fear because this decision is becoming firmer and firmer with each step I make. That was the fear I got yesterday... Fear that this was like a "sign" but it could also just be a way to be more dedicated to my choice! It could be taken either way... In the end I could not just throw out all that had happened to me spiritually that deepened my discernment. I hope I'm right. I'll speak to my SD later when I can about that because he knows what those things are that happened. He never expressed disapproval or disagreement of them... I'm a very fearful person. But I don't feel like that when I'm praying about all this or when I surrender the fear, there is much joy. Do you have any thoughts? I'm ok if its not religious life though that is what I like most. I just want to be able to love Jesus exclusively, but I don't care how or where. But above everything should be surrender to God's Will so that's what I'm trying to do. His Will is all that matters in our life. So if He called to me to marriage I would go. I just don't know how to take my heart back. I think if its His Will I would have peace and grace for that... So far though the only feelings for this guy were very natural and that's not enough for me. They didn't give joy and definitely not the spiritual pure joy of His grace or belonging to Him.. I don't know though. I could be very wrong. That's my risk.. All I could do now is pray for a change of heart if He wants this or to go deeper into my discernment if He wants this. It is all His Will  

[marigold]

Sounds good.

[MarysLittleFlower]

This thread reminds me of a little story that is probably no help at all but it does involves guys and discerning.

Im a revert so dated, working woman etc blah blah, then felt a call to religious life and was like huh what the heck.  My spiritual director told me to at least go meet some nuns so I did.  I had no clue what to expect, never met a nun before, let alone those weirdo cloistered kind   There I had an open heart and I met God and had some nice consolations that would prepare me for the desolations to come.  So here I am on the plane home from that wonderful holy, God filled time and the guy sitting next to me started hitting on me like crazy.  He was good looking but kinda off, for example he wasnt wearing shoes! he claimed he had glass in his foot or something O.o so appearance yes character no!!

   

 

haha :D that's so funny...  it always happens at a strange time! Actually the guy who asked me out, when he did this last year the first time, he did it the DAY of a renewal of my promise (of chastity). I wonder why. thats what got to me - i had literally just renewed my promise. Maybe thats what shook me up when he turned up again. Plus this is exactly what would please my fam and thats my "big fear" - hurting my parents. It all combined. But my reaction to first discerning was similar to yours  

[marigold]

MLF, could I ask you a completely selfish favour?

Do you think you could try breaking up your posts into smaller paragraphs? I enjoy reading your posts very much, but when it's a giant chunk of text, my eyes hurt and I find it hard to follow your train of thought. Something to think about... ?

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think your resolve is commendable, MLF. I do understand that you often have to be a bit 'blunt' to stay on the narrow path - it's not for nothing that Orthodox spiritual literature is filled with images of arenas and soldiers and fighting the good fight. In fact, in a lot of writings about monastics will say he or she was 'struggling' or 'labouring' in this or that monastery. 'The kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.' It is good to be resolved to follow the Lord, and part of that involves being able to be frank with yourself about what you are experiencing.

For myself, I knew I wanted to be a nun, then had a very good relationship, and eventually kept on the path of becoming a nun. God forbid my life ever be a blueprint for someone else's, but I'm just saying that for me it ended up being a brilliant experience in human love, which I think better equipped me for monastic life. God is merciful and wants us whatever we are doing.

I understand I could be wrong about many things and yes it is like a fight... Haha... Not without some times of rest though. (Or who would make it through). The reason I'm so stubborn here (though hopefully not to God's Will!

That goes above all, even above all my discernment and way of relating to God) - is because this attraction not per se to religious life but to loving Jesus alone (in world or not), is almost irresistible. I see that I'm free but its like a no to grace, to say no. I mean that's what it feels like. The fear that I could be wrong, is often there during trials.  

Edited July 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

MLF, could I ask you a completely selfish favour?

Do you think you could try breaking up your posts into smaller paragraphs? I enjoy reading your posts very much, but when it's a giant chunk of text, my eyes hurt and I find it hard to follow your train of thought. Something to think about... ?

oh yes makes total sense, sorry about that! (and to everyone else too). Its all due to typing all my phone  so i just type and type... Lol. I'll do that though.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I wanted to add: It might be beneficial (or might not, you tell me) to think about the fact that in the Orthodox Church, we consider monasticism much more in terms of a choice than a calling. 'I have chosen to dedicate myself to God in the monastic life', rather than 'I think and/or hope God has decided this for me and I have to try and figure it out.' I'm not denigrating the latter, but for me, certainly, it is a huge relief to think of it in terms of my choice. It makes it easier to stay dedicated! Some of our best saints went through terrible struggles to maintain their choice to be dedicated to God above all else. It's ok to struggle - it means good things are happening!

Hmm well actually in the traditional Catholic literature, there's a lot of this idea that its a choice and that if we are disposed towards it and have no obstacles we can just choose it. I also heard the idea that since its a higher good everyone is invited but not all respond..  But its not like others are displeasing God because we need holy marriages and that is good too.

Then I started thinking... It takes grace to respond... So does that mean some are given this grace and some not? That would go into the "call" part of it. It could be both together... Are those well disposed this way due to grace, or do they receive grace through being well disposed? Or both in some mysterious way? Which could be, considering how mysterious it is with salvation. I got lost at one point with all these thoughts and mostly just leave it up to God  

I tend to think there's an element that is God's Will because some people try and just see its not their vocation.. And at the same time, a free choice. Maybe... Just maybe... The disposition of making such a choice indicates a call, so we don't have to "figure it out" but just make the choice and then see if its God's Will in practice.

Its one of those things I never understood a part of me wants Him to choose for me because of certain risks I'm taking with my family... Its not something I would do for my will, but for His, yes. However, religious life is a choice that is pleasing to God in itself, I mean religious life is an offering of the self to Him and objectively more perfect. 

 

Edited July 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[marigold]

oh yes makes total sense, sorry about that! (and to everyone else too). Its all due to typing all my phone  so i just type and type... Lol. I'll do that though.

Thanks!

[HopefulHeart]

If you do happen to feel attracted to a man, it is important to recognize your attraction and remember that it is a completely natural human feeling. Simply experiencing attraction is not wrong, though our response may certainly be.  A wise religious sister once told me that even in consecrated life, it is entirely possible that a religious woman may feel attraction to a man. God always gives us the grace to respond to these attractions in a manner befitting our individual dispositions and state of life. Still, attraction remains a fact of life, and we need to acknowledge that we have these feelings. If attraction arises, it is better not to avoid it but to consider it prayerfully and practically.

Edited July 3, 2015 by HopefulHeart

[Swami Mommy]

MLF, I say this with love and concern over your emotional well-being: Whoa, take a deep breath and chill a bit!  When I read your posts I feel like I'm watching you anxiously wring your hands over and over in distress!  If you are feeling drawn to the attentions of a young man who is pursuing you, know that it's perfectly natural and OKAY to feel that way.  If you are feeling drawn to a consecrated religious life, it's OKAY, no matter what other life path your mother wants for you.  If you just want to stay single, live in the world and make a personal vow of chastity, that's OKAY too!  There is absolutely no wrong or right answer here, and all roads lead to God eventually.  You clearly have a very vivid spiritual imagination and a lot of emotional sensitivity, so your posts sometimes feel, to me, that you are needlessly working yourself into a frenzy of confusion, doubt, fear and anxiety, as though you have to know RIGHT NOW!!  If there is that much inner tension involved in your decision-making process, you'll never be quiet enough, relaxed enough, and patient enough to let God work through the natural unfolding of your life to lead you to where you are meant to be.  You will become your own worst obstacle in the path of discernment.  And, to be honest, you must be very careful to step back and observe yourself to see whether you are subconsciously 'manufacturing' your own religious fervor to disconnect yourself from a past you don't feel comfortable owning as a part of the warp and weave of your life.  Your posts have sometimes seemed to allude to a feeling of guilt over your past that you may be trying to make amends for.  There are so many contours and permutations in life, and each way of moving through life has its own rewards and challenges.  There is no one perfect choice, but all choices carry their own unique gifts and lessons to be learned.  Just remember that you are TOTALLY and UNCONDITIONALLY loved by God, no matter what you have done or what you may eventually do or don't do, because you are a radiant fragment of His own perfect Love made manifest.  This Love AS you can be expressed in infinite ways, and since nothing in this world is excluded from the perfection that is God's Love, please know that your sincere intent to love God through your thoughts and actions, however life unfolds for you, is all that matters.  

[beatitude]

I've had many parties and social events in my life I also have a very worldly past. Now it just wearies the soul if its too worldly. I still have a social life in the parish though but its different. But if I had a very quiet past I'm not sure I'd try to experience the world too much... I think it can lead a persons heart into some attachments .. I mean I'm familiar with directors actually saying not to date and to focus instead on prayer..? It makes more sense to me to retreat a bit from the world and give all of one's affections to Jesus, while still having friendships etc - which i do have I think personally even going for coffee would place me in danger of having feelings for the guy.. Not only is this very painful for a discerning person but it can really distract. Its not like I have no clue what I'm leaving, but also how necessary is it to know? Im confident it isnt something i would love more than my relationship with Jesus also i dont know if the guy is Catholic and if i was looking at marriage i would prefer someone with the same values and to base the relationship on Christ. . i dont know. I could be wrong but there are some thoughts  

There is lots of good advice in this thread. I agree with Credo's suggestion to just follow the guidance of your spiritual director. Marigold's reminder is good too: there is a strong element of choice in this. There are challenges in the happiest of lives, and this is normal, but God does not ever box us into lives where we would be fundamentally unhappy with what we're doing. So never worry that God doesn't want your commitment. I think it's helpful to remember that when we commit ourselves to God, we are not offering him a box of chocolates that he will peer at and maybe select or maybe reject - he always wants us and always welcomes us. Always. And we can give him nothing that he doesn't already have, because even that desire to go close to him comes from him too. He put it in our hearts the second we were made. It's a fundamental part of who we are as humans. If you remember this then it gets harder to panic over your commitment being unwanted. Don't look for signs in little things like a man coming up to you in the street, because an anxious mind can turn absolutely anything into a sign. St Ignatius said "His will is our peace", a sentence that has a beautiful double meaning - we will find peace in his will, and his will is for us to be at peace! - so just look for where your peace is. That's enough.

Sometimes from your posts I get the impression that you regret your past life so much that you try to avoid everything associated with it, even things that aren't bad in and of themselves. and you struggle to cope with feelings that are very natural for anyone to have. You also seem to be keen to get concrete instructions on what to do, and unfortunately we can't always have those - uncertainty is part of life too. (Dealing with this is probably the biggest challenge I face as a Christian.) Trying to relieve your anxiety by looking up what this spiritual director and that priest said is unlikely to work, because they were usually giving advice to specific people in specific situations, and what was a good idea for the person they were helping may not be a good idea for you! Sometimes the only thing you can do is accept that you aren't going to receive a detailed operating manual to explain away all your worries and just pray, "Jesus, I trust in you." Right now I am in a very dark and painful time in my personal life, and I don't have answers. I've been trying to compensate for the lack of certainty by obsessively planning out possibilities for the future, wondering if I'm on the right track, and all the rest of it. I think the Bible verse to answer this agitation about the future is "Remain here with me". No rushing ahead. No worrying about where you might end up. Just focus on what your spiritual director has requested you to do in the present moment and what you feel is right.

I am glad that you have been contacting Benedictine communities.  The Rule of St Benedict is very gentle, practical, and balanced and I've always felt that it's ideal spiritual reading for someone with a tendency to scruples and anxiety. Even if you don't end up entering a Benedictine monastery, it's a valuable read.

Edited July 3, 2015 by beatitude

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thank you for the replies! I know its not wrong in itself to feel attraction to a guy, its natural, I think what I was trying to express is that the way it felt to have this type of attention is not as beautiful as when Christ shows us that He loves us.

I think in a context of marriage it is more beautiful and special. But for me the vanity I was tempted to for a few moments ruined it. It wasnt like in a marriage either. But I think the way Jesus shows us love is so perfect that my heart just doesn't want something else. I don't think I'm looking at religious life just as a way to make amends for my past because when I give myself to Jesus in this way I only have peace trust and joy and no desire to prove I'm worthy. I tried applying St Ignatius discernment to this... However I could be wrong.

So I try to go to my SD for guidance and I trust he can guide me in my vocation. Since he has been encouraging me with this that has helped. However currently I'm just going through some interior trial. I really need God to help me. I said before I feel drawn to seeing Jesus as my Beloved and I got a ring that says "I am my Beloved's".

Even with my past I had hope that He still accepts me and I was very happy. Then I read from St Alphonsus Liguori about religious life... And I'm NOT blaming him at all because I like him so much as a Saint and author isreally one of my favourites. It is not his writing but my lack of understanding that is bothering me.

Ever since I read a particular chapter I had such pain in my heart. He talked about how if a virgin offers herself to God (and he meant a nun not a CV), she is His spouse. I don'tunderstand why the whole chapter on nuns was about virgins. I agree with St Alphonsus completely on the beauty of glory of consecrated virginity. Butif a girl sinned and then repents and gives herself to God through vows is she not His bride?

Can she not call Jesus her Beloved, for Whom she gave up all others? I know I have struggled with this for a while... I thought it was gone because Jesushelped me see I can still attain sanctity in Him, and He is my sanctity.

But after I read that I could not understand and I still can't. Why was only virginity mentioned? I began to feel like all these 6 years and my relationshipwith God was uncertain now. Its even painful just looking at my ring. So its a trial but I can't even talk to my SD right now and I'm on a train to visit family for a month.

I know everyone would tell me I shouldn't worry... But I don't understand intellectually if what was said applies only to virgins. Why were only they mentioned?  I don't mean a special glory in Heaven. I just want to love only Jesus. Is He not the Beloved of a soul gives her chastity to Him even as a penitent? I'm not afraid of marriage and not discerning to escape my past or anything else.

I just want with all my heart to love Jesus alone and its a risk that I'm taking with my family but my fearful feelings cause these interior trials that I can't seem to fight well. I know I need more trust and when I'm closer to Him I do trust.. I don't feel this way when i just love Jesus and give myself to Him, then its only joy. I'm sorry for writing so much... Im just upset.

I can't understand what St Alphonsus meant and if its not permitted for me to relate to God this way. I didn't renounce marriage  for any reason except wanting Jesus alone as my Love and I was trying to discern if His Will   

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm sorry I'm so melancholic that's actually my temperament (so I've been told by everyone too) and plus I'm sensitive and introspective. So interior difficulties don't go well with me without a lot of God's help which He does give. But today has been a struggle with that question. Also I'm sorry for typos in my above post - my phone this spell check that sometimes goes bananas 

Edited July 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[beatitude]

St Alphonsus was either wrong outright in his view of nuns, or at least mistaken to exclude nuns who are not virgins from his writing.

I know from past discussions that you have a very hard time accepting that a saint could be mistaken on something, and I think it's connected to that same desire for certainty that I mentioned earlier - it simplifies things if we can just look at a saint's writing and think, "It must be true if St So-and-so wrote it." But this is not the Church's own vision of sainthood. Think about it this way: do you believe you can be a saint? As Christians all of us believe this. But do you believe that everything you've ever written, no matter how well-intentioned, is perfect? Presumably not. But if you were to be canonised, your writings might very well be published after your death. This doesn't mean that the Church is endorsing every word in them. The Church recognises that becoming holy is a process, and that it can be helpful for Christians to see that process in the writings of the saints, so we relate to these holy men and women as human beings who faced the same trials we faced. St Alphonsus was not canonised because everything he wrote was 100% perfect. Sainthood is not a theology exam. Sainthood is open to us through the grace of God and our love in responding to that, nothing more. This does not guarantee us total intellectual understanding of our faith and it doesn't mean that we will never write a wrong word when putting pen to paper.

To give an example, there are places in the Gospels where saints are very obviously wrong, and Jesus corrects them - St Thomas, for example, and St Peter. St Peter is corrected by St Paul even though he was the first pope! So we have a record of these saints making very public mistakes. St Thomas was preoccupied by physical evidence; he didn't have enough trust in God. St Alphonsus - like many people alive at his time - was preoccupied with physical virginity. It does not mean he was right to be so. I think that understanding this is vitally important for your peace of mind. If you can accept that saints too had defects, you might become more at peace with your own past weaknesses - and therefore ready to move on from them properly, into your new life. Right now they're haunting you.

I don't know what your spiritual director has advised about spiritual reading, and I know I recommended the Rule of St Benedict to you before, but I think it might be helpful for you if you read nothing but Scripture for a while, particularly the Gospels. Read and meditate, do lectio divina, live with those texts. Then go back to reading the saints. But if you want Jesus as your only beloved, live with Jesus' words only for a while, see what he says to you. I have a feeling it will help.

P.S. I also recommend PMing Sister Marie. She once mentioned that St Alphonsus has a strong influence on the spirituality of her community and she might be able to put your mind at rest.

Edited July 3, 2015 by beatitude

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thanks for the reply... I understand why St Alphonsus valued virginity because it is to be valued, I value it too... The past is the past but now I want to just love Jesus. But he didn't say penitents can't be nuns or aren't brides of Christ... He just didn't address them. He was writing a letter to young women to esteem religious life and not be pressured to marry if they have a call. But since he didn't mention it, I got confused because my mind can over analyze. I did bring my New Testament with me and I'm planning on reading it in the summer  mostly when I read the Saints its just Jesus' words to them which are always comforting. But I read biographies too. I would certainly like to meditate on the words of the Gospels. One time I wrote this reflection on the Scripture story of the "sinful woman", that is very relevant for now...  I know there were discussions here on Catholic scholars and St Mary Magdalene but in my post I'm referring to old scholars  also it gives my first name but it's actually a nickname of my first name so no giving away my identity lol  http://made4moreministry.ca/she-who-loved-much/