Tags in VS: An Open Letter

[Ash Wednesday]

In the past, every so often, other CMs were invited to nominate posters for CM. Last year dUSt had a free for all thread where anyone posting in there assenting to all the Church's teachings would be given one.

At the moment I am trying to figure out groups assignments, how I had done it before seems to have changed. 

[veritasluxmea]

In the past, every so often, other CMs were invited to nominate posters for CM.

So you *did* have to get in the the CMs to be one. hum. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

Someone in the other thread suggested that maybe I could get a "Church Scholar" tag. Just curious, but how would I go about doing that? 

[Nunsuch]

Sponsa-Christi, I just wrote to dUSt to ask about the Church Scholar designation. If I find something out, I will post here.  Not sure what the criteria are.

[Ash Wednesday]

I believe Church Scholar has a degree in theology.

I have had it from time to time when I entered a convent but then had to ask to have it removed after I had left. I also know of at least one other person on VS who still has the Religious tag even though they are not in a convent anymore. For that reason alone, I think it would be a good idea not to give it to anyone until they have made final vows. But that's just my opinion.

Your opinion is correct, and again, that is how the tag should be assigned. Can you PM me and let me know the username of the person is who is no longer in a convent? Thank you.

[Nunsense]

Your opinion is correct, and again, that is how the tag should be assigned. Can you PM me and let me know the username of the person is who is no longer in a convent? Thank you.

 

Ash

Back in the day when dUSt first created the Religious tag, it was simple to get it - one just had to explain that they were entering and ask for it. So quite a few people got it. Not everyone who entered a convent was able to stay though, and I think some people felt embarrassed or like failures,  so not all of those who left came back to phatmass either. I was one of those few who did come back and asked to have the Religious tag taken off and the CM tag put back on. This happened more than once for me and in every case, I simply wrote to dUSt and asked for the tag to be put on or taken off and he responded.

Personally, I think this whole focus on making people 'prove' their affiliation is disgusting. I know of at least two Religious on here who don't want to name their communities and I respect their anonymity, just as I respect the anonymity of anyone who posts on Phatmass. Those who want to talk about their communities as part of information/education about themselves can do so, but it should be a voluntary choice to do so, especially if dUSt is going to give it to those who enter, because they often want to keep their new community identity private. If dUSt decides not to give the tag to those entering, that is his choice.

And since dUSt assigns the tags, he is the only arbiter of who gets them and he is the only one who has to be satisfied to do so. If someone writes to him and asks for a tag, I leave it up to him to make that decision. If he wants to consult moderators or other posters, once again that is his choice. I would just hate to see the whole privacy/anonymity protection being stripped away simply because some posters want to know everything about someone. It is NOT the right of the members of phatmass to demand that posters identify themselves to each other. If someone is worried about the veracity or authority of a poster, they should just remember that this is the Internet! They can report someone to a moderator or dUSt if they think they have a good reason, but otherwise, I am against turning this place into a police state. 

Sorry, but I don't feel comfortable naming someone for having a Religious tag after they have left a convent. That is up to them to do so and I respect their privacy/anonymity. I would have hated it when I left a convent if someone had confronted me and demanded I remove the tag. Once I felt comfortable returning to Phatmass and VS, that's when I was ready to ask for the tag to be removed. Others deserve the same consideration and charity. I don't think the occasional 'mislabeling' is going to damage phatmass. It will just embarrass the person who is being asked to remove their tag. 

Sometimes this place feels so cold and unwelcoming.

 

PS - nothing personal against you, Ash - you are just doing your job. It's the general attitude of this thread that upsets me.

Edited July 12, 2015 by nunsense

[veritasluxmea]

Once I felt comfortable returning to Phatmass and VS, that's when I was ready to ask for the tag to be removed. Others deserve the same consideration and charity. I don't think the occasional 'mislabeling' is going to damage phatmass. It will just embarrass the person who is being asked to remove their tag. 

Yes, this. I agree with Nunsense. Case by case is fine, I think the way the tag is handled so far has worked (and if it ain't broke..) No one is abusing the tag. 

I don't think some of the ideas posted about proving affiliation are out of line or cold; I think people were just brainstorming ideas, and it's nothing personal or about anything in particular. If there's an issue, which there isn't, there are some good ideas here to address it, that's all. 

[Ash Wednesday]

I apologize if I came across as cold, unwelcoming or insensitive regarding the matter. I am just doing my job, or at least trying to (and at times like this, I enjoyed phatmass more when I wasn't a Mediator of Meh)  As I stated earlier on, prior to becoming a Mediator of Meh I've had very little involvement with the VS board, or the rules specific to the board.

Given that I have no power of assignment in the matter, I will only offer my shared opinion that religious tags shouldn't be assigned unless someone has actually taken their vows to avoid awkward situations. 

I don't think specific verification of ID or anything like that should be necessary -- I don't think people are always comfortable sharing information or identification over the internet. A reasonable alternative would be a trust-based system where someone is given the benefit of the doubt, however I would still suggest that some trust would need to be established with the phatmass community, i.e. someone has posted for a period of time on the boards -- I'm not sure it would be entirely prudent to assign a tag to a new user with just a few posts on the board claiming to be a nun, if that makes sense. But that decision is not up to me at this point.

Assuming that dUSt is the only one who assigns the tag, in the future, if someone needs a religious tag, can the request please be sent directly to him. People have gotten in touch with me about assigning tags, or who should/shouldn't have a tag like I'm supposed to do something about it (and this is the only reason why I've even stuck my nose in the matter) -- and I can understand it if they are having trouble contacting him -- but generally, assuming this is out of my power then please direct the requests to him. 

[Nunsense]

I apologize if I came across as cold, unwelcoming or insensitive regarding the matter. I am just doing my job, or at least trying to (and at times like this, I enjoyed phatmass more when I wasn't a Mediator of Meh)  As I stated earlier on, prior to becoming a Mediator of Meh I've had very little involvement with the VS board, or the rules specific to the board.

Given that I have no power of assignment in the matter, I will only offer my shared opinion that religious tags shouldn't be assigned unless someone has actually taken their vows to avoid awkward situations. 

I don't think specific verification of ID or anything like that should be necessary, that would actually be pretty weird to ask for. A reasonable alternative would be a trust-based system where someone is given the benefit of the doubt, however I would still suggest that some trust would need to be established with the phatmass community, i.e. someone has posted for a period of time on the boards -- I'm not sure it would be entirely prudent to assign a tag to a new user with just a few posts on the board claiming to be a nun, if that makes sense. But that decision is not up to me at this point.

Assuming that dUSt is the only one who assigns the tag, in the future, if someone needs a religious tag, can the request please be sent directly to him. People have gotten in touch with me about assigning tags (and this is the only reason why I've even stuck my nose in the matter) -- and I can understand it if they are having trouble contacting him -- but generally, assuming this is out of my power then please direct the requests to him. 

Ash - I'm sorry if my post made you think I was talking about you - I definitely wasn't. You are a wonderful moderator - very fair and charitable and also very interested in helping others here. Thank you. I know that being a Mediator of Meh can be very hard and unrewarding.

My comments about it feeling cold and unwelcoming here were directed at the tone of other posters in some threads. VS used to be a place where everyone felt like family or close friends, supportive and encouraging. But in the past year or so it has seemed to become very hard and unyielding - critical of anyone who has a dissenting opinion on something and some very dogmatic and superior attitudes by some. I am perfectly aware that VS (and indeed even phatmass generally)  goes through stages - sometimes there is contention and a lot of arguing, sometimes there is sarcasm or putting others down, and sometimes it is charitable, informative and/or supportive. It is just a matter of weathering out the different storms - that is why I come and go from time to time. When I start to feel things getting too unfriendly, I just disappear for awhile, reading occasionally but not posting much. Then when things seem to be a bit more accepting and collegial, I start posting again.

And I do agree with you that anyone who has a request about a tag should simply ask dUSt directly. But this whole tag thing seems to have been blown up all out of proportion recently - as if any of it is really important! I have seen Church Militants lose their tags, others posters get labelled Phishy and still others banned completely. Tags come and go. Posters come and go. Getting a tag doesn't make anyone 'special' or more authoritative in my mind. Even the Church Scholar tag simply means that a person has been educated to a certain level in a certain field, but not that their opinions are any more valid than mine. And Church Militants are the same to me - they have demonstrated a fidelity to Church teachings, but they are by no means experts, nor is their opinion worth any more than anyone else's. I think the tags can be a handy reference point for newbies at times, but it seems also to have become almost an obsession with some people lately - trying to label people. Labels can be helpful but they can also cause division and contention - and it would be nice not to have that 'smell' in VS. Just my 2 cents worth.

[BarbTherese]

Ash Wednesday : " I would still suggest that some trust would need to be established with the phatmass community, i.e. someone has posted for a period of time on the boards -- I'm not sure it would be entirely prudent to assign a tag to a new user with just a few posts on the board claiming to be a nun, if that makes sense. "

Perhaps a certain period as a member, plus number of posts even possibly reputation points for any tag?

 Phatmass is not infallible, although it does almost seem at times to be striving for the unattainable quality

 

‌

Edited July 12, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[Ash Wednesday]

No worries, I didn't want to come across as some cold robot looking to strip people of religious tags, I had just been in the process of asking other Mediators of Meh if something should be done about it -- given that this particular board is a tight ship to run -- and wouldn't have acted unless it was a consensus across the boards with the experienced Mediators of Meh higher up the food chain, given that this isn't the first time the question of assigning premature religious tags has come up amongst the Mediators of Meh in private because posters ask us about these things. If some past premature religious tags prove to be a sensitive issue to someone unable to stay in their order, then perhaps it is better to let them take it upon themselves to handle it with dUSt. 

Ideally the tags are just meant to avoid confusion, i.e. if someone is CM they are obedient to all teachings (so there weren't people claiming to be Catholic but telling someone that the Novus Ordo mass isn't valid, or that Humanae Vitae doesn't matter) or if someone is Scholar then they are allowed to answer questions on the Q&A board and are likely to bring good insight and clarity to a particular discussion. But in the big picture they aren't worth having a bee in the bonnet over.

Unless my phatsenility is kicking in, I think one of the reasons that influenced using the tags (CM and phishy in particular) was because Catholic Culture had leveled criticism at phatmass in their website fidelity ratings because of some of the posters on the boards, and I felt this criticism was a little unfair. Phatmass clearly states fidelity to the Church and there's always going to be people of dissenting and differing beliefs on the boards, what's more there's always a good group of people there to explain the teachings of the Church (and this must be done with kindness and charity, of course).

[dominicansoul]

Ash, I feel the majority of us didn't take it that way.  The thread is about tags, so of course, the discussion of those who have the tag and aren't religious would come up.  I wouldn't suspect anyone of being malicious mentioning those facts, they are just simple observations.  I'm sure people who have the tag and aren't religious would be happy to get it off.  (At least, if it were me, I definitely would no longer want that label.)

I do believe there has been some confusion in the past, where a person just entering a community would automatically be up for a religious tag.  But I like your idea better, that they should actually have professed final vows/ordained before receiving it.

 

 

[Ash Wednesday]

A lot of people have brought up avoiding premature tags prior to this discussion -- needless to say, it makes sense for a lot of good reasons.

[veritasluxmea]

Ha ha, maybe we should have a separate tag for people in religious/priestly formation.

Edited July 12, 2015 by veritasluxmea

[Gabriela]

Ha ha, maybe we should have a separate tag for people in religious/priestly formation.

LOL. No!

@Ash Wednesday: Thanks for your posts. They were really helpful. I didn't know a lot of the stuff you clarified. 

[Feankie]

I have a Master's and Doctorate in Theology, but became  Church Militant in the "free for all" last year.

 

[Guest]

Mmmmmmmm......read the thread.......and I am so confused .......... 

Edited September 5, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Mmmmmmmm......read the thread.......and I am so confused .......... 

In brief: Don't count your novices before they are professed.   

In layperson's terms, wait till they have the ring on their finger. (Except that not all Communities wear rings.) <sigh>

I REFUSE to use the "chicken" cliche when talking about nuns!! Unseemly.

Edited September 5, 2016 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, IgnatiusofLoyola said:

 Don't count your novices before they are professed.

One of my hobby horses. 

I think all in all in all the various Catholic matters here and then there and then over there - oh yeah and then there too, we just may have surpassed in number all the rules and regulations of the Jewish religion in the days of Jesus when He walked our earth.   And we know what Jesus had to say about it

Edited September 5, 2016 by BarbaraTherese