Tags in VS: An Open Letter

[veritasluxmea]

@dUSt

I propose we update the tags in the Vacation Station. There is a wide variety of people in VS representing different types of religious life, and I think that just having a Catholic Religious is to black and white. There are people who are members of secular institutes, and when people assume they are the "typical" Catholic Religious, it's confusing and misleading. (see this thread) A tag would help clear that up. Then there are people who are members of secular institutes who contribute very valuable (and interesting!) experience and wisdom from their state in life, and I think it might be helpful if they were tagged as belonging in a secular institute, if they wanted. I think it would be helpful if we divided it into three categories: 

The Catholic Religious tag should be reserved for men and women who have professed the Evangelical Counsels in a religious order, live in community with that order, and are in good standing with that order. The "typical" nuns and monks. 

There should be a Secular Institute tag for people who are part of "third orders", secular institutes, and so on, people who are still living in the world and live the vows/promises of their institute according to their state in life. 

There should be a Consecrated Virgin tag for @Sponsa-Christi. 

Thank you for your time. Yeah, I know VS isn't a democracy and you're handling it fine but I just want to see if this would be helpful or not. I've been thinking about this for the past six months and I'm posting it as an open suggestion for other people's input. Would anyone else think it would be helpful to VS? 

[julianneoflongbeach]

I agree, but mostly because I'd be gunning for the CV tag. LOL

Edited July 8, 2015 by julianneoflongbeach

[Gabriela]

I'm passing this on from an anonymous Phatmasser who wishes not to post herself:

Secular orders should NOT be conflated with secular institutes.  Very different.  The secular institutes are closer to religious or even more like diocesan hermits or consecrated hermits...  Nothing like a Secular Order.  We have enough trouble getting people to not confuse them.....

Personally, I don't even know what the difference is. So maybe she has a point.

Also, I think the point of the "Catholic Religious" tag is to mark people who do not "live in the world" and who have had more formation in the Faith than the vast majority of us. In Sponsa's case, she has clearly had more formation than most, but there's a "Church Scholar" tag for that when it occurs in isolation.

I am nervous about having a "CV" tag because of all the controversy CV stuff has stirred up in the past. I understand why Sponsa would want it—it would help promote awareness of that vocation—but I'm just not sure now is the time to do it, at least in Phatmass. Not given our history with that stuff.

I agree, but mostly because I'd be gunning for the CV tag. LOL

Are you a Consecrated Virgin?

[julianneoflongbeach]

 

Are you a Consecrated Virgin?

No, not yet. But I'm on my way there. It's my vocation.

[veritasluxmea]

Thank you for sharing, Gabriela. I have a loose understanding of the differences; that's why I put "third order" in parenthesis because the term can loosely refer to people associated with the charism in the world, like with the Carmelites here. I posted this as an open letter so people could come out and explain the difference, but if they don't want to that's fine. 

If it helps, I know the Franciscan Sisters of Penance, of the Sorrowful Mother in Steubenville are Third Order Religious (T.O.R). They would qualify for the Catholic Religious tag, they are like "typical religious." 

This would be an example of a secular institute. I don't have the knowledge to go into canon law and talk about the differences, but like Beatitude has talked about in the past they are more like "yeast in the world," so to speak. 

I thought this was obvious but just to clarify, SC didn't ask me to post this or say anything about it, I just suggested it myself. 

[Gabriela]

 

I thought this was obvious but just to clarify, SC didn't ask me to post this or say anything about it, I just suggested it myself. 

Yeah, that much was clear. No problem. 

Out of curiosity: Where would the Third Order Dominicans fall in all those secular classifications? Cuz they're called "third order," but they're not technically part of the Order of Preachers, though they're obviously strongly affiliated and they live in the world. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Gabriela

[Credo in Deum]

We could always just stick with one tag and then just mention that this tag only applies to the below mentioned  type of individual as opposed to creating multiple tags for multiple people.   

 The Catholic Religious tag should be reserved for men and women who have professed the Evangelical Counsels in a religious order, live in community with that order, and are in good standing with that order. The "typical" nuns and monks. 

 

I personally feel the religious tag should become more strict.  I'm pretty sure I could make an account calling myself 'Br. Tobias' and then make a couple posts mentioning I'm living in community at 'insert order here' and half the people (with good inentions no doubt) would send a request asking that we give me the religious tag.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[BarbTherese]

Meh

 

[dUSt]

What?

I don't understand all of this.

I only made a religious tag because someone told me just having a tag for priests was not enough. Now someone is telling me a Religious tag is not enough. Where does it end?

[julianneoflongbeach]

Maybe tags should just be what people want them to be, like from a drop down list.... At least once we've successfully proven were not all heretics.

 

 

 

[Gabriela]

What?

I don't understand all of this.

I only made a religious tag because someone told me just having a tag for priests was not enough. Now someone is telling me a Religious tag is not enough. Where does it end?

Well, what was the point of the priest tag to begin with? Was it just for the Q&A forum back in the day, when only clergy and church scholars could post?

I like having religious identified. Personally, I think priests, religious, and church scholars are enough.

I personally feel the religious tag should become more strict.  I'm pretty sure I could make an account calling myself 'Br. Tobias' and then make a couple posts mentioning I'm living in community at 'insert order here' and half the people (with good inentions no doubt) would send a request asking that we give me the religious tag.

I'm the one who's been requesting new tags for all the new religious. I thought that the Mediators of Meh did the vetting of who really is and isn't religious, so my intent was just to draw attention to the fact that there were religious noobs around without a tag, so they could be vetted and get one. I didn't realize I was supposed to do any vetting!

We've had people in the VS in the past who pretended to be discerners. I don't see what's to stop anyone from pretending to be a religious. Which is actually why I think we SHOULD have a "religious" tag, and why I think it should be verified by Mediators of Meh or some other person. It's harmful enough in the VS when a discerner turns out to be "fake". Imagine the harm a "fake religious" could do. We need the "certification" that a tag provides so that the more innocent among us don't wander about here reading posts by fake religious that actually contradict Church teaching or misrepresent religious life.

Maybe tags should just be what people want them to be, like from a drop down list.... At least once we've successfully proven were not all heretics.

Sorry to be blunt, but this is a terrible idea. People in the VS give a lot more weight (rightfully or wrongfully) to those whose tags label them as religious or clergy. If anyone could call themselves that, then we'd have total chaos in here when it comes to the accurate depiction of religious life/priesthood.

You have to understand, Julianne, that Phatmass is not just a place to hang out and talk to other Catholics. It has an evangelical and catechetical mission as well. We're trying to show the world what real Catholicism (and, in the VS, what real religious life and priesthood) is. People come on here all the time and claim to be Catholic, then post a bunch of stuff that conflicts with Church teaching. That's bad news for those non-Catholics and poorly catechized Catholics who discover Phatmass and then start clicking around to learn a bit about Catholic teaching. And that's why we have a "Phishy" tag. It helps to cut down on misrepresentation and misunderstanding of what the Church actually teaches.

Now imagine if some trouble-making anti-Catholic created a profile and just selected a "Catholic Religious" tag for himself from a drop-down menu. Then he comes into the VS and starts spouting all kinds of anti-Catholic lies about what religious life is like, talking all about how he never read the Bible, worshipped Mary, was sexually abused by his superior, etc. It'd be bad news. We need some way to determine who legitimately is who they say they are and who is not, for the sake of those who come here to learn, and for the sake of not misrepresenting the Church and Her institutions.

In the VS, MOST people come here to learn. At least partially. And many VSers are young and quite innocent. So "whatever people want" is a bad idea around here.

[Yaatee]

A vote from the outside.  Keep it like it is.  Some religious might not even want themselves identified.  Otherwise, too many subdivisions.

[Egeria]

Not that I have a dog in this race, being Orthodox and all, but I do agree that, particularly in VS, there should be a way of knowing that those who identify as religious are what they say they are. For the most part I think it would be pretty easy to pick out someone fake (and the last two were obviously genuine) but I suppose there might be some who could fool some people for a while and potentially do considerable damage.

An alternative, if vetting that they're genuine is too difficult, is to ask anyone who wants to be identified as religious to identify themselves by their real name and link to their Order or congregation's website. In general, I would imagine that religious on VS would feel less need for privacy than some others, although I may be wrong...

[Nunsuch]

Could someone tell me what the criteria are for "church scholar"? Does having a PhD and a tenured professorship, and being a published scholar on Church history qualify?

[veritasluxmea]

I still think we need another tag for people who have vows but aren't "typical" religious. They contribute A LOT to making VS a really positive and informative place and it would be helpful to distinguish their state in life. 

Yeah, that much was clear. No problem. 

Out of curiosity: Where would the Third Order Dominicans fall in all those secular classifications? Cuz they're called "third order," but they're not technically part of the Order of Preachers, though they're obviously strongly affiliated and they live in the world. 

They are like a secular institute. For example, St Louis de Montfort was a third order Dominican. He didn't go to Dominican seminary or wear a Dominican habit, but he was part of that charism and family. Third orders like that are considered "family members" of the Dominican family though they aren't technically "brothers and sisters" like the friars and nuns. St Catherine of Sienna was a Third Order Dominican. When she was living, it was common for people like that to wear a habit although they didn't live in community. It wasn't until about three hundred years after her death that changed and gradually became what we know it today.

A lot of it can make sense after reading the history of how the third order came about in that particular order. The Franciscan Sisters I talked about have an explanation of it here that really clears it up: 

“What does ‘T.O.R.’ mean?” many ask.  These letters stand for “Third Order Regular.”  Within the Franciscan Order there are both religious brothers and religious sisters of various congregations and provinces, who originated from lay men and women (unmarried) who were among the “Third Order Secular” Franciscan order.  Some of these Secular Franciscan men and women desired to remain single and celibate, as a permanent form of life, and so to take religious vows.  In time, the Church approved them as an official religious order within the Franciscan family.  The entire Franciscan family is made up of The First, Second and Third Orders.  Within the First Order is the Order of Friars Minor (OFMs), and the Order of Friars Minor, Capuchins (OFM, Cap.) and the Order of Friars Minor, Conventuals (OFM, Conv.).  The Second Order is entirely made up of Poor Clare Nuns, and the Third Order includes both the Third Order Seculars (lay people) and Third Order Regulars (male and female religious congregations).

http://www.franciscansisterstor.org/what-does-t-o-r-mean

So I think it would be helpful to tag Third Order Seculars.  

If it helps, I know the Franciscan Sisters of Penance, of the Sorrowful Mother in Steubenville are Third Order Regular (T.O.R).

Corrected. 

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Yeah, that much was clear. No problem. 

Out of curiosity: Where would the Third Order Dominicans fall in all those secular classifications? Cuz they're called "third order," but they're not technically part of the Order of Preachers, though they're obviously strongly affiliated and they live in the world. 

IF you mean 3rd Order Dominicans as in lay Dominicans they are totally members of the Order of Preachers as they make a promise to the Master of the Order. The Order governs their rule of life, oversees the care of the chapters, etc.

If you mean the Sisters well, they aren't 3rd Order anymore. They are religious who are part of the Dominican Family.

BTW, there is no such thing as 3rd order in the Dominican Order. They are called The Lay and Priestly Fraternities of St. Dominic.

I'm sure you are all confused! Trust me, Dominicans are just as confused! :-)

 

I didn't even notice the tags! Do people notice them?

[Credo in Deum]

I still think we need another tag for people who have vows but aren't "typical" religious. They contribute A LOT to making VS a really positive and informative place and it would be helpful to distinguish their state in life. 

IMO, the VS description is clear that this forum was made for those members discerning a vocation as a "typical" religious (Priesthood, Nun, etc).  Now this is not to belittle other members vocations. It's just to distinguish between the primary purpose of VS and then everything else that happens in VS.  Also we appreciate the contribution these members make, but the amount of contribution is not a key factor for these types of tags.  And as dUSt mentioned where does this end?  Why just these vocations? Why not a tag for all vocations?  The line has to be drawn somewhere. 

When I take a scroll through the topics in VS, I think one can see that most of the time the threads are pertaining to those "typical" religious vacations, so I feel making new tags for those who are not in those vocations seems unnecessary at this time. 

Regardless, in the end it's not up to me.  I'm just throwing in my one cent.  I'm also not trying to be harsh, so I apologize if I come off that way.  I just feel if it ain't broke then don't fix it.  I personally can't see how not having these new tags is going to impact VS negatively.

[superblue]

after the tags, the tags should be tagged so everyone knows why the tags are there to begin with.

[julianneoflongbeach]

 

You have to understand, Julianne, that Phatmass is not just a place to hang out and talk to other Catholics. It has an evangelical and catechetical mission as well.

 

I know that's what phatmass is supposed to be... But lots of people here are cliquey. They get up on their soap boxes and tell each other how good and great they all are , then treat people who don't automatically fall in line with suspicion. If I weren't Catholic, or just young and inexperienced , this isn't the place I'd come for a chat. Or to get a question answered, setting as how (now that I know only certain people can answer them) there are very few answered questions in the logical place to ask them and the few there mostly aren't very good.

When I first came here thinking it was actually about evangelizing and saw all that I was very confused. Sorry... But it's my nature to poke bee hives with sticks.

 

 

[Gabriela]

I still think we need another tag for people who have vows but aren't "typical" religious. They contribute A LOT to making VS a really positive and informative place and it would be helpful to distinguish their state in life. 

 

They are like a secular institute. For example, St Louis de Montfort was a third order Dominican. He didn't go to Dominican seminary or wear a Dominican habit, but he was part of that charism and family. Third orders like that are considered "family members" of the Dominican family though they aren't technically "brothers and sisters" like the friars and nuns. St Catherine of Sienna was a Third Order Dominican. When she was living, it was common for people like that to wear a habit although they didn't live in community. It wasn't until about three hundred years after her death that changed and gradually became what we know it today.

A lot of it can make sense after reading the history of how the third order came about in that particular order. The Franciscan Sisters I talked about have an explanation of it here that really clears it up: 

So I think it would be helpful to tag Third Order Seculars.  

This is partly why I was confused, because I interviewed some of the Franciscan TORs and they're obviously sisters in habit, living in community. But the third-order Dominicans (laity) are not in habit and don't live in community. So it seems complicated and probably not something we should burden the Mediators of Meh with untangling for tag purposes.

IF you mean 3rd Order Dominicans as in lay Dominicans they are totally members of the Order of Preachers as they make a promise to the Master of the Order. The Order governs their rule of life, oversees the care of the chapters, etc.

If you mean the Sisters well, they aren't 3rd Order anymore. They are religious who are part of the Dominican Family.

BTW, there is no such thing as 3rd order in the Dominican Order. They are called The Lay and Priestly Fraternities of St. Dominic.

I'm sure you are all confused! Trust me, Dominicans are just as confused! :-)

 

I didn't even notice the tags! Do people notice them?

Wait. I've seen people with the initials "T.O.S.D." (Third Order of St. Dominic) after their names. What's that?

And yes, people in the VS definitely notice when someone is labeled with a "Catholic Religious" tag. Haven't you noticed that sisters' posts generally get 10 times more props than everyone else's?  

Edited July 9, 2015 by Gabriela