Planned Parenthood Uses Body Parts from Partial Birth Abortions

[Nihil Obstat]

 

Does it even matter if they ARE selling aborted fetal tissue?

Most of us here believe abortion is an abomination and a terrible crime against the least of these. Profiting off it would be bad, if that's what's going on, but even if they aren't the rot of the issue still remains. This phenomenon is likened to simple "tissue donation," because the individual's life and rights are not recognized. Who really cares if they are getting kickbacks for tissue donation?

I just think scandals like these don't do too much to advance the pro-life cause. Maybe for a few people who ride the fence, but for the most part . . . Idk

 

Might be beneficial for the unsure or the lukewarm to see the abortion industry for what it is. Shock them off the fence in a way.

[KnightofChrist]

Does it even matter if they ARE selling aborted fetal tissue?

Most of us here believe abortion is an abomination and a terrible crime against the least of these. Profiting off it would be bad, if that's what's going on, but even if they aren't the rot of the issue still remains. This phenomenon is likened to simple "tissue donation," because the individual's life and rights are not recognized. Who really cares if they are getting kickbacks for tissue donation?

I just think scandals like these don't do too much to advance the pro-life cause. Maybe for a few people who ride the fence, but for the most part . . . Idk

 

I do believe it helps advance the pro-life cause. It helps show just how barbaric and backwards the Abortion industry is in practice. Informing others of how the Industry is selling hearts, livers, brains or other body parts does make it easier for the person to understand that the baby is not just tissue. The Media in large part is ignoring or denying this story because they know if most people knew about it and knew body parts were being bought and sold like politicians buy and sell their votes to donors that it would very much indeed help the pro-life cause.

[Credo in Deum]

Does it even matter if they ARE selling aborted fetal tissue?

Most of us here believe abortion is an abomination and a terrible crime against the least of these. Profiting off it would be bad, if that's what's going on, but even if they aren't the rot of the issue still remains. This phenomenon is likened to simple "tissue donation," because the individual's life and rights are not recognized. Who really cares if they are getting kickbacks for tissue donation?

I just think scandals like these don't do too much to advance the pro-life cause. Maybe for a few people who ride the fence, but for the most part . . . Idk

 

If these scandals can cause an investigation which would remove their govt funding then it would help a lot.  Will this take them down? Probably not, but doing nothing results in nothing. 

[veritasluxmea]

doing nothing results in nothing. 

Exactly. When history looks back on us they'll see there were some people who did what they could, now matter how futile it seemed. 

[Ice_nine]

Yes if people are uneducated and don't know that a fetus has a brain/heart etc then I guess this would shock them and hopefully "win them over" but most educated people prowling the internet know this, they just A) don't acknowledge the personhood of the fetus or b) think the personhood of the mother outweighs that of the fetus. So perhaps it has a limited effect among certain audiences.

However, I don't find this adds to the horror of abortion as someone pro-life.

 

As an aside, how does one feel about lying, which I thought was a sin, to obtain this information?

[Archaeology cat]

Yes if people are uneducated and don't know that a fetus has a brain/heart etc then I guess this would shock them and hopefully "win them over" but most educated people prowling the internet know this, they just A) don't acknowledge the personhood of the fetus or b) think the personhood of the mother outweighs that of the fetus. So perhaps it has a limited effect among certain audiences.

However, I don't find this adds to the horror of abortion as someone pro-life.

 

As an aside, how does one feel about lying, which I thought was a sin, to obtain this information?

Yes, my pro-choice friends and family haven't been shocked by this. It's a legal practice, and they deny the personhood of the fetus and see this as just like any other tissue or organ donation. Now, I'm happy that it might lead to investigation that could remove funding for PP, most definitely, but if the people I know are representative of pro-choicers (and I don't know if they are or not), then so far this hasn't changed minds on abortion.

Also, yes, I have an issue with lying to get the info. 

[KnightofChrist]

It helps the pro-life movement and harms the abortion industry. There are a lot of people in the middle who are not educated or do not fully understand that abortion kills a baby. Many people fall for the meme "it's just a blob of cells" however when one starts talking about human body parts being sold it does make it hard for the abortion industry and it's defenders to justify it's actions. This is unlikely to be the straw that broke the camels back but it is yet another straw on the pile and the pile will keep growing. It unmasks the Abortion industry and forces them to play defense and it gives the pro-life movement yet another weapon against those the slaughter babies. Had the videos never came out the national discussion would have never happened and we would likely all be ignorant of the barbarism taking place.

But yes going undercover is a form of lying and lying is always sinful. In like manner the mid-wives lied to the Egyptians to save the male children of Israel from being murdered. The people in the underground railroad lied to save slaves. People lied to Nazis to save Jews. Pope Francis while he was still a priest lied to communists to save the lives of others. It's always wrong to lie and we will have to answer for doing evil so good may come from it. 

[Nihil Obstat]

For the more intellectual, academic pro abortion types, this actually might be a rather stronger attack on their beliefs. Those people actually do tend to recognize the fetus as human, even as a person in some sense. But their argument, Peter Singer being a prime example, is that their lesser development and lesser rational capacity implies that it is permissible to kill them weighed against proportionately less grave circumstances. That being the case, this organ harvesting illustrates a logical endpoint of this view. Harvesting lesser humans for organs. The elderly too, and the disabled. Peter Singer would likely agree that this is not ruled out by his utilitarianism. Expose it for the horror that it is, reveal them as the villains they are.

[Gabriela]

It helps the pro-life movement and harms the abortion industry. There are a lot of people in the middle who are not educated or do not fully understand that abortion kills a baby. Many people fall for the meme "it's just a blob of cells" however when one starts talking about human body parts being sold it does make it hard for the abortion industry and it's defenders to justify it's actions. This is unlikely to be the straw that broke the camels back but it is yet another straw on the pile and the pile will keep growing. It unmasks the Abortion industry and forces them to play defense and it gives the pro-life movement yet another weapon against those the slaughter babies. Had the videos never came out the national discussion would have never happened and we would likely all be ignorant of the barbarism taking place.

But yes going undercover is a form of lying and lying is always sinful. In like manner the mid-wives lied to the Egyptians to save the male children of Israel from being murdered. The people in the underground railroad lied to save slaves. People lied to Nazis to save Jews. Pope Francis while he was still a priest lied to communists to save the lives of others. It's always wrong to lie and we will have to answer for doing evil so good may come from it. 

I was taught (by Catholics) that it isn't always wrong to lie. A person has to have the right to know the truth they ask for. If they don't have that right, one may lie.

Certainly protecting the lives of others is a good reason to lie. Look at what the Bible says about the midwives who lied:

15 Then the king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiph′rah and the other Pu′ah, 16 “When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, she shall live.” 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live. 18 So the king of Egypt called the midwives, and said to them, “Why have you done this, and let the male children live?” 19 The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and are delivered before the midwife comes to them.” 20 So God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied and grew very strong. 21 And because the midwives feared God he gave them families.

(Exodus 1:15–21)

[Benedictus]

 

Might be beneficial for the unsure or the lukewarm to see the abortion industry for what it is. Shock them off the fence in a way.

Maybe some. But others will think it good that science can learn from the bad situation of the abortion. But I think others will see this as media manipulation by prolife groups. If they do research they'll know partial birth abortion isn't the normal means of abortion, it's actually fairly uncommon when compared to the number of abortions done. So it could be seen as trying to use a small incident as a means to sway support against other forms of abortion, such as medical induced abortions (which are the most common type in the last decade or so in most countries). The issue is the late abortion in the first place, not how the dead body is used! The church has to be able to contribute to solutions of the factors that cause all abortions in the first place, based on demographic and sociological research. The principle and philosophical debate alone isn't enough.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Benedictus

[superblue]

This is the same thing the democrat ( socialist party ) has been getting away for years now, lul people into a false sense of safety thinking that this is the party that is for them, because they care, and know what is best for them ( because obviously they can't think on their own ). An nothing will be done about this, to the democrat party, A baby, a human being is not a person until it leaves the emergency room. an i will let the fact checkers search that one on their own.

I am too skeptical of how these videos are obtained, and do wonder how much planning went into getting all this done.... but even with out the videos, none of this should be a shock.  This is how the democrat party operates all the time, and this flag ship of theirs PP is just a small glimpse into what they want for the rest of us.  And the democrat typical answer to this, is to briefly answer it, and then ignore it by pummeling a republican.

IF Obama wanted to, he could literally declare that the second amendment is officially abolished, and that he will now run for a third term or just flat out do away with presidential term limits, and it would be fine. Not one democrat in the party would do anything to stop him and neither would any republican, we would have normal people protesting in the streets demanding justice, while the rest of America laughs it off as poor sore losers.

But hey we also have this blessed deal with Iran , to distract us from this mess, and give cover to obama to get something else done in the process.

And there are effective ways to get our politicians to listen, but it takes hard work that no one wants to do, and so the lazy options that the democrat party proposes is a much easier way of solving things while the republicans promise time an again to do at least something and still can't figure out how to do it with out offending the democrats.

 

 

[Tony]

This is a frightening statistic 

(CNSNews.com) – In 2012, there were more black babies aborted (31,328) in New York City than were born there (24,758), and the black children comprised 42.4% of the total number of abortions in the Big Apple, according to a report by the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene.

 

Margret Sanger would be proud.

[Benedictus]

Superblue - Both parties are corrupt and useless when it suits them.  The Democrats are far from being Socialists in the real sense. Both parties have prochoice and prolifers in them though. The republicans, if trends move as they are, will shift place over the next twenty years or so if it wants to get elected. The support it gets on social conservative positions, in general, rests with the baby boomer generation at the moment. But that can't last forever. I did read though some time ago that among social liberals, especially the young, they are developing a tougher outlook on abortion in some ways when compared to their parents. So maybe this issue will break the mould across the spectrum in the future.

 

Edited July 25, 2015 by Benedictus

[veritasluxmea]

My understanding is that we are not to "bear false witness against our neighbors." Lying for the sake of personal gain, ego satisfaction, to harm another, to avoid acting virtuous or doing the right thing, ect is condemned under this- but undercover work is not against Church teaching. I've read a few arguments (mostly Mark Shea's) against this sort of undercover work in the pro-life movement, and I'm not convinced to his side. I feel like how this article puts it: 

But even these well-formed Catholics cannot explain why they may deceive the [someone to save someone's life], or at least they can’t explain it in a way which is universally accepted by sound moral theologians down through the ages, nor in a way that has (yet) been endorsed by the magisterium of the Church. In other words, most of us believe we can (and indeed should) lie under these circumstances, but we don’t know exactly why. (via Is lying ever right?)

Unfortunately the current Catechism doesn't address this, although it doesn't condemn undercover work either. In the end, I agree with this guy:

My appeal to readers is this: set aside the divisive conversation that in some corners continues to overshadow the important work being accomplished by Live Action. As long as the faithful possess the freedom to form their own consciences either according to the common teaching or according to another tolerated theological opinion, we should maintain the bond of unity and be able to support the work of Live Action even if we personally disagree with the tactic of posing as a Planned Parenthood client. As individuals, we should not feel at all comfortable going beyond where the Magisterium itself has gone: we should not condemn or criticize the efforts being employed by other individuals who have formed their consciences according to moral principles tolerated by the Magisterium. (via CMR)

It just seems to be one of those not gray issues where you have to be well-informed in virtue ethics and your conscience and then make a choice, and you can't condemn someone for heresy if they disagree with you. 

On my fb feed I see mark shea and some other people getting sucked into the "does this hurt or harm the pro-life movement" issue, and if so should we have done it. It seems pretty clear to me all it's done so far is help. What's PP to do? Press charges against the people and make martyrs out of them, drawing more attention to the issue? Embrace what they said and play it off as ok, further disturbing people? It seems like the best move is it ignore it- which they're doing. But even then, if all the video does is get PP and pro-choicers to uncomfortably ignore it- that weakens their position and "power", even if it's just a little, even if they're in denial of it. 

Edited July 26, 2015 by veritasluxmea

[Gabriela]

My understanding is that we are not to "bear false witness against our neighbors." Lying for the sake of personal gain, ego satisfaction, to harm another, to avoid acting virtuous or doing the right thing, ect is condemned under this- but undercover work is not against Church teaching. I've read a few arguments (mostly Mark Shea's) against this sort of undercover work in the pro-life movement, and I'm not convinced to his side. I feel like how this article puts it: 

Unfortunately the current Catechism doesn't address this, although it doesn't condemn undercover work either. In the end, I agree with this guy:

It just seems to be one of those not gray issues where you have to be well-informed in virtue ethics and your conscience and then make a choice, and you can't condemn someone for heresy if they disagree with you. 

On my fb feed I see mark shea and some other people getting sucked into the "does this hurt or harm the pro-life movement" issue, and if so should we have done it. It seems pretty clear to me all it's done so far is help. What's PP to do? Press charges against the people and make martyrs out of them, drawing more attention to the issue? Embrace what they said and play it off as ok, further disturbing people? It seems like the best move is it ignore it- which they're doing. But even then, if all the video does is get PP and pro-choicers to uncomfortably ignore it- that weakens their position and "power", even if it's just a little, even if they're in denial of it. 

I had a (f2f) discussion with another Phatmasser about this just yesterday. She's concerned about consequentialist thinking in justifying the lying, because she feels that consequentialism is fundamentally incompatible with Christian ethics. I think it probably isn't per se, though it certainly is in isolation (i.e., if consequences are the only ethical consideration one makes in a given case). Then I brought up just war theory, to which she responded with international law on just war (which she said would prohibit deception of the enemy). In the end, I don't think we reached a consensus or even any kind of conclusion. But we agreed that there is definitely something "study-worthy" about this case, because so many people—even people who wholeheartedly condemn lying—feel such a strong urge to applaud them, even though they lied.

Personally, I'm glad they did it. I don't know if the lying was morally justifiable according to the Church. I'm not sure anyone knows that. So the ultimate dilemma I brought up to the other Phatmasser was: "If I did think lying was wrong in this case, would it then be wrong for me to still be happy that they'd done it?" That's a whole 'nother problem!