The Church needs to change - but not in the way they all say

[KnightofChrist]

We've had this debate about a dozen times now, and the same people say the same things every time. There's actually something to discuss here (veritas and credo's posts are good examples of this) why don't we (for the time being) put aside the terminology debate, which isn't the purpose of this thread anyway? 

Yeah, we've debated everything on earth just about a dozen times now. We've even debated that we've debated what we've debated before a dozen times. Actually dozen is probably more like thousands or more...

The two fundamental truths of phatmass are as follows,

No topic will stay on topic

This has all happened before and this will all happen again.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I basically had dUSt's reaction. It would have been nice to see the better parts of the article (welcoming homosexuals, change in most Catholic's attitude) in a more faithful, vibrant article. Eh, maybe one day I'll write one. 

 

I wish the thread had gone in this direction instead of talking about labeling or sacraments or whatever- not just for FH, but for the Church in general. It sounds like that was what the author had in mind and what FH had in mind when posting. I know phatmass derails and goes all over the place, but I want to see good discussion on the OP's intention anyway. 

Credo, I can't answer for anyone, but I have a lot of first-hand, personal experience in being an "ally" for people with disabilities and mental illnesses such as anxiety, depression, and agoraphobia. While being gay is obviously different from that, whenever people are struggling and suffering internally there are some similarities in what "other people" can do to help. Not everything applies to someone who's gay, but below is just a start in understanding how to think compassionately. 

What seems to be at the root of the whole problem/controversy with what to call "someone who is gay" is that saying they ARE gay/homosexual implies it can't be changed, and depending on how someone understands homosexuality that can make them uncomfortable. I don't think "real" homosexuality is "curable." If someone tells me they are really homosexual- I will believe them at face value. I think it's ok to take people at their word and not to presume something unless I have solid reason to do so. So whatever they want to call themselves- what they tell me their experience is- is their prerogative. 

I have a mental illness and offended that you heap me in with homosexuals unless it actually is a mental illness and than all temptation is actually a mental illness, but i agree with all the points your article bought up about how to be truly compassionate, with anyone whom is suffering. And i think it is good if a christian experiencing homosexual attraction particularly if they act upon it suffers, because homosexuality is lust and therefore a sin, i to suffer all my sins and hate them terribly. And i have compassion for anyone that suffers from sin, the burden of sin can be quite heavy and debilitating and requires those around us to help carry such burdens. Also though i do have compassion for unrepentant sinners i also try to not associate with them on a friends level because iron sharpens iron and obviously we are on a different page, though i will converse with them i won't hang with them and will aid them with such things as food, clothing, pay bills and even on the odd accsion get them drugs or alcohol though i will say to not use either excessively and that they should support there own habbits. Not boasting or trying to put myself on a pedestool or saying that i am right and other people are wrong, this is just where i'm at with my understanding of what is true and just not only for other people but also for my own salvation.  And by the way i have a mild amount of same sex attraction but somehow do not act upon it, i imagine my attraction being mild and if it was an intense attraction that would be difficult but also perhaps it always starts out mild at the begining and if you feed it it gains momentum.

Perhaos there is a difference between same sex attraction and homosexuality, homosexuality is acting upon that same sex attraction. I have been starved of female companionship since 2001, i have had no friends that are girls since than, i have had a few that lasted a month or two but that is all, perhaps the lack of femininity has confused my sexuality.

It is not that i don't want to associate with the opposite sex it just seems that they dont want to associate with me for whatever reason. It is a burden i bear with terribly.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[veritasluxmea]

I have a mental illness and offended that you heap me in with homosexuals

Please reread my post. 

[veritasluxmea]

I'm sorry mobile users for the length. I edited what I could but I think what I included, even if it's a lot, is very worthy of being understood and shared. 

I wish the thread had gone in this direction instead of talking about labeling or sacraments or whatever- not just for FH, but for the Church in general. It sounds like that was what the author had in mind and what FH had in mind when posting. I know phatmass derails and goes all over the place, but I want to see good discussion on the OP's intention anyway. 

Credo, I can't answer for anyone, but I have a lot of first-hand, personal experience in being an "ally" for people with disabilities and mental illnesses such as anxiety, depression, and agoraphobia. While being gay is obviously different from that, whenever people are struggling and suffering internally there are some similarities in what "other people" can do to help. Not everything applies to someone who's gay, but below is just a start in understanding how to think compassionately. 

HA. I finally found something concrete which addresses reaching out to homosexuals. The focus is for family members who have just come out and are starting to be initiated into the lifestyle. Give it a read and see if this is something someone in your life needs to hear. This is a pretty good summary of evangelization in a personal encounter. 

My prayer - that every gay man and woman will have a candle of Love and Truth in their life. And, what is that candle? The candle is you: in the form of a Faithful, courageous, and fearless Catholic. Like my former self, far too many homosexuals trapped in the life have a plethora of straight friends and family members who give them unconditional love, never judge them, or question their initial entrance into the lifestyle; instead, they cooperate in a strange practice of “coming-out;” gushing and heralding loudly the gay person’s boundless bravery. After the hugs and kisses - none of those well-wishers follow that soul into the darkness of sexual perversity that awaits them; at 18, on my first day in the Castro, I was set upon by numerous men promising to “make a man out of me;” a new buddy my age, a rather naive Mid-Westerner, after a few months in San Francisco, was HIV+ and died the following year; in the 1990s, I only wore black - as a funeral seemed a daily occurrence; since then, little has changed - while gay men account for about only 2% of the US population, they make up well over half of all HIV infections; young gay men are most affected, with 93% of all infections in the age group 13-19 years resulting from homosexual sex. 

Yet, despite the gravity of the present, and the inherent dangers of the future, many with close friends and family members who are gay - choose to believe the lie, or to stay quiet. For the most part, they remain blissfully ignorant as they fear the truth; or, they deny the truth in order to remain within the circle of friendship and dysfunction. In silence and capitulation, the ties with the homosexual person are preserved, and the dysfunctional family continues to gather and celebrate various holidays and special occasions while the façade of normality perpetuates and bolsters the continuing entrapment within homosexuality. For, by collaborating and remaining dreamily complicit, you are making it extremely easy of the homosexual to stay in the lifestyle; in effect, you are contributing to the darkness; as the Light of Christ remains hidden from view. 

Therefore, let your candle burn brightly. Then, just how does one accomplish this? Like all great works of Mercy, this much be approached following the Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and Fear of the Lord: Of these Gifts, in relation to becoming a light for the homosexual, the most important are: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, and Fortitude. First, educate yourself: read and understand “The Catechism of the Catholic Church” with regards to homosexuality; read the several “Letters” and “Pronouncements” from the Holy See on this issue; and read the works of Fr. John Harvey, the founder of Courage; Accept what you have studied in your heart and disregard the lies of the present culture - everything from the theory of gays being “born this way” to the myth of homosexual monogamy; Now, we can discern or judge between what is wrong and right according to the teachings of Christ as passed on by His Holy Church; The Divine plan for those suffering from same-sex attraction will be clearly evident to you; With courage we no longer have fear; we can pass on to others the Wisdom and Understanding that God Graced us with. Only, combined with these Gifts must be The Virtues (or Cardinal Virtues) of Prudence, Justice, Fortitude [Ibid], and Temperance. The tendency towards the good, which practicing The Virtues will encourage, can only develop through habitual prayer and fasting; therefore, before one ever even thinks of approaching or encountering a gay friend or relative - great time must be spent in prayer for that person; for Divine help; and for guidance; at the same time, fasting or other forms of suffering and supplication must be offered up in the name of the homosexual person. 

In all things, be prudent: never broach the subject of homosexuality with the afflicted person at a social gathering; unless, initiated by the person. At these events, be diligent and set up a future meeting that will be more intimate and more private. If they accept - approach them with love and kindness: say that you care for them, want the best for them, but are also genuinely worried and scared for their safety. Right away, this puts you on their side. Here, different tactics must be taken with different people: with the lapsed or former Catholic, a more direct approach is possible; for a mustard seed of Catholicism is worth more than a pound of something from another denomination; with other Christians, or those of no faith - a slower, gentler approach is best. First, tell them that God loves them - as they are, right now; it’s been my experience that most homosexuals have never heard this before. Then, ask them if they are happy. You may be surprised by the answer you get, as my experience has also overwhelming shown that the majority of people in the gay lifestyle often feign a blank sort of giddy happiness that thinly covers over a hard truth of genuine dissatisfaction and insecurity. During the conversation: bring up the subject of other family members, who you may or may not also be related to. With men, try to swerve the discussion towards their father; with women, their mother. This process may take several meetings; but, you will gain the person’s trust over time. 

Finally, you will call upon all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and The Virtues to share the Good News. And, here, your candle will burn brightly; but, in order to do this - you must look closely at your own life, for you must be beyond reproach. This does not mean that your life has been a complete hagiography, you may have been severely compromised by sin, but the important things is that you currently are fully reconciled with the Church. With this in mind, explain to the person the workings of the Lord in your own life: how difficult and how rewarding it is conforming one’s will to the Will of God. Have some material for them at the ready: again, all of the books by Fr. John Harvey are a necessity; also the shorter, but equally profound “The Courage to Be Chaste” by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. In the majority of cases - this will be your last meeting. Often, the gay person will deliver an ultimatum: accept me for who I am or I will have nothing to do with you. At that point, take them at their word and say goodbye. Tell them that they are loved, that the door is always open, but that you can not stand by and watch as they destroy themselves. 

Now, you have set your candle on the windowsill; it will burn as a beacon to those looking for it. Your relative or friend may never turn around again to see it; they may die; but, you did what God commanded you to do: you witnessed the Truth - with kindness and fidelity. The other people in a gay man or woman’s circle of friends and relatives will continue to collaborate; slowly, because of their close association with an active homosexual, what little faith they may have will drift away - they will lash out at others, including you, and point to their love for that gay man or woman as proof that the Church is wrong. You will be banished; and, yes, hated. Only, anything is possible with God, and miracles happen every day - one moment may come, when that seemingly fulfilled gay relative will call you up, or e-mail you, or text you; because you were the singular human being in their lives that once told them the Truth.
(via Joseph Sciambra)

 

I basically had dUSt's reaction. It would have been nice to see the better parts of the article (welcoming homosexuals, change in most Catholic's attitude) in a more faithful, vibrant article. Eh, maybe one day I'll write one. 

I'd like to elaborate on this further- I was typing this pretty fast. I had a sense of what we could do to have a better attitude- but I couldn't think of anything concrete individuals (myself) could do. Anyways, when I found the above article I also discovered the Joseph Sciambra went to the Pride parade in San Francisco to evangelize with people involved with gay culture there. I'm really impressed he had the guts to do so and the grace to do it so charitably. I don't know where he learned to do that but he knows how to reach out to people pretty well. I volunteer with St Paul Street Evangelization on a regular basis and I was lucky to learn from the people on my team how to go out and share the faith (only took me a few minutes of explanation, it's easy). 

Bolded are the important parts to being out on the streets sharing the Faith with people: listening and sharing, not arguing, and promoting Catholicism, not trying to "win people over" by saying negative things about their faith (there might be a time and place for someone to learn bad facts about their religion- like Mormonism's racist history- but encounters like this aren't it and that is not a part of street evangelization.)

With my JesusLovesGayMen.com and Women.com sign raised high – the older and curious who remember me and the young and inquisitive who want a free Bible, or one of the religious bracelets that I give away, walk up to me. They typically thank me for declaring that Christ does indeed Love gay men and women, then I hand them a card which gives an internet link to an hour long video detailing my life in San Francisco and escape from the porn industry. Most are surprised and want to know more. I give them a quick 1 minute synopsis of my life before, during, and since homosexuality. Even though they sense that I am clearly not a rabid gay ideologue, still, they understand that I too have suffered – therefore, they always immediately tell me their story – which never takes a minute. But, I listen, that’s really why I am there: to simply listen.

 

This year, I spoke with a number of precious souls: people raised as Catholics, but, sometimes, without actually thinking about, who just drifted away from Church; some told me they still believe, oftentimes visit one of the majestic and awe-inspiring church’s in the City, but that they never go to Mass; some outwardly rebelled against the Church, understanding – usually only half-heartedly, the Church’s condemnation of homosexuality; many more, found inclusive Christian sects that accepted them for “who they are.” The majority felt that they no longer needed the Church, and that the Church no longer needed, or wanted, them. One person got downright angry with me: claiming that I was asking homosexuals to change. I said I was not: “…that was their decision, but they have a right to know that an alternative does exist.” A few try to trap me with loaded questions: “Does God love homosexuals in a committed relationship;” my answer to these questions is always: yes, yes, yes. God always Love His Children; to myself – I think: He does not Love what they do, but he will always Love them. But, every time, I choose to remain non-confrontational – I am there merely as a messenger: giving the option to those who want to listen; ultimately it’s their call: to stay or to leave – however, they deserve to know that a good life does await them outside of the gay lifestyle.

 

Some conversations swerve from the spiritual and into the purely material: I inevitably get asked what it is like to be in porn. Along those lines, those that know who I am, think they have the right to grab me inappropriately; my backside was squeezed too many times that day; but, I do not give them the reaction they want; because I understand that everything in the gay world is immediately sexualized: it’s a way of falsely pulling something close to you, and, at the same time, shoving it away: for, when something is sexualized, it brings it down to a plain of existence that we can easily understand – that we can touch and feel; yet, it also degrades it…trivializes it – lowers everything to a level that we can idly take-in while refusing to consider the larger questions that are clearly implied. This is because, in the gay community we fear so much: especially those who have hurt us – so, in order to cope, we strive to conquer our fears by having sex with them; i.e. being sodomized by an older man makes us believe that perhaps our father did love us.

One middle aged man that I spoke with, still attractive and “bear-ish” in his 50s, remembered seeing me on YouTube; being of the same generation – we reminisced a bit about San Francisco in the 1980s and 90s; then, he said: that he got hit on 10 times today. I asked him: “Where they younger?” “Oh yes,” he answered rather matter-a-factly, like I already knew what he was going to say: “…they are all looking for a father.” Over the thumping blasts from the numerous DJs, I said out loud: “Precisely.”

 

I can't get it to paste in plain text.  

Edited July 24, 2015 by veritasluxmea

[Ice_nine]

I just don't know how much I believe that homosexuality is mostly or always rooted in the same-sex parental relationship. I'm sure there are cases where this is an issue, it may even be a great number of cases, but there's no literature I've read that endorses this hypothesis (although I'm sure studies are skewed being political and all) and in my anecdotal experience it's a mixed bag. And then this might cause people to really psychoanalyze and question whether they have a good enough relationship with mom or dad and, no relationship is perfect.

But other than that he had great advice.

[Benedictus]

I just don't know how much I believe that homosexuality is mostly or always rooted in the same-sex parental relationship. I'm sure there are cases where this is an issue, it may even be a great number of cases, but there's no literature I've read that endorses this hypothesis (although I'm sure studies are skewed being political and all) and in my anecdotal experience it's a mixed bag. And then this might cause people to really psychoanalyze and question whether they have a good enough relationship with mom or dad and, no relationship is perfect.

But other than that he had great advice.

I would go more and say it's a damaging nonsense. All it does is make parents feel guilt and does nothing to help. This is a theory that has hung around for too long and should be an idea or theory that is discarded with all the other theories of things that ended up in the trash. Such things are mostly only used by religious zealots with an axe to grind; such ideas have been long dropped by anyone in the mainstay as bunkum.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Benedictus

[veritasluxmea]

I just don't know how much I believe that homosexuality is mostly or always rooted in the same-sex parental relationship. I'm sure there are cases where this is an issue, it may even be a great number of cases, but there's no literature I've read that endorses this hypothesis (although I'm sure studies are skewed being political and all) and in my anecdotal experience it's a mixed bag. And then this might cause people to really psychoanalyze and question whether they have a good enough relationship with mom or dad and, no relationship is perfect.

But other than that he had great advice.

I can't dismiss his views or experience out of hand, although he's certainly not infallible.

I agree no relationship or family is perfect, even the 10+ kids, daily mass, homeschooling Catholics families. I have a lot of wounds and hurts in my life from my family which still affects me to this day, and I grew up in a solid Catholic family with faithful parents who are in love with Christ and His Church. When I started the healing process I was surprised at how deep I was hurt by only a few things, and I had a very good, positive childhood with a secure attachment to both my parents. I suspect for everyone, like parents pass on original sin to their children, parents will also hurt them in some way through their family relationships, some families more deeply than others. 

The author certainly seems to think homosexuality come from wounds in our nature in psyche. I know it came from original sin, but he also seems to think it comes from wounds directly received. He seems to hold the view that although homosexual attractions/inclination don't really completely leave someone's life, it's possible to gain some measure of healing in this life through Christ. I don't think any human will "achieve" a completely healed psyche/nature/whatever in this life, although some people may come closer to it than others. So if someone was homosexual based on past wounds and traumas, they probably won't have compete freedom and healing from it until heaven. Sanctity, which involves healing, is the work of a lifetime. In the end I don't know and I don't think it matters terribly much. I'm not sure how much I agree/disagree with him, but I respect his views and how he got there and I'm encouraged to see his witness. 

Edited July 25, 2015 by veritasluxmea

[MarysLittleFlower]

oh your talking about that other group sspx or whatever there called, also they are not illigitimate. We talked about this years ago, they are like a bastard child but still under the authority of rome as far as i'm aware though not officially allowed to administer the holy sacraments though i guess a communion service they can and do and get there hosts from the tabernacle, and by the way the FSSP is fully legitimate.

The FSSP have vestments and liturgy like what Nihil posted 

 

I am not pre vatican 2 nihil, i am post vatican 2 and believe all the subjects of faith and morals handed down by the current magesterium.

we are bound to believe everything handed down by the Magisterium ever, not just post V2. The Church didn't start post V2. Can you imagine someone after Trent rejecting the early Church Councils and saying "I will only follow Trent?". Its all the same faith. And Trent had much more doctrinal weight than a more pastoral council like V2 because Trent defined doctrines. The history of the Church isn't "pre V2" and then"post" as if V2 is the main event. Its a council and we've had councils before. The Magisterium in infallible in general not just now.

Edited July 29, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

The FSSP have vestments and liturgy like what Nihil posted 

 

 

we are bound to believe everything handed down by the Magisterium ever, not just post V2. The Church didn't start post V2. Can you imagine someone after Trent rejecting the early Church Councils and saying "I will only follow Trent?". Its all the same faith. And Trent had much more doctrinal weight than a more pastoral council like V2 because Trent defined doctrines. The history of the Church isn't "pre V2" and then"post" as if V2 is the main event. Its a council and we've had councils before. The Magisterium in infallible in general not just now.

I never said i don't accept teachings pre vatican 2.  Perhaps in general but still the magesterium is not infallible. Don't say it is, follow the guidance of the church with a living faith( open eyes) not a blind hysteria.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[MarysLittleFlower]

Its Catholic to believe the Magisterium is infallible. We are bound to believe that. I'm sorry but I'm not willing to reject a dogma because someone thinks its blind hysteria to believe a dogma. If you are debating a point and calling the other view words like "Blind hysteria", that is not an argument but sounds like an emotional response. But the "other view" you are debating happens to be a teaching of the Church we are bound to accept. The way Christ instituted the Church is good and that includes the infallibility of the Church. 

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/infallibility.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

 

"That the Church is infallible in her definitions on faith and morals is itself a Catholic dogma"

 

That font came out much bigger than intended but maybe for the best... 

Look you can't get clearer than this definition from Vatican I. It even has an anathema that's how serious it is. The link above describes how the ordinary Magisterium also acts infallibly not only when the Pope speaks ex cathedra. The Pope is infallible but the acts of the ordinary Magisterium share in that. The link describes that in more detail. That is the Catholic position not some other one. 

• teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that

   

  • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
    • that is, when,
    • 1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
      2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
      3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
  • he possesses,
    • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
  • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
  • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

     

  ---

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm#papal infallibility defined

 

Edited July 30, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

(Just to add, when I said the Ordinary Magisterium shares in infallibility I just mean when the Bishops teach the same thing together with the Pope and other such cases that are described in.Catholic articles you can find on the Magisterium)

Edited July 30, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I never said it is blind hysteria to believe in dogma nore did i say don't believe in the churches dogma, you people are great at putting words into peoples mouths. Stop it please. And on the whole if the ordinary magesterium is absolutely infallible than the statement from a priest in another thread recently posted means that this priest is a heretic, he states the ordinary magesterium can speak non-infallibly. I'm just using the documents you post to me.

"It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error.... To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals." (Catechism, 890)

 

This is what i needed to see. notice it says charism, what is charism? That is beyond ordinary conversation, a charism is a sacramental isnt it? Why does it use the words ' with the charism ', this obviously is a particular and not an ordinary or the document would merely state Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with infallibility in matters of faith and morals." (Catechism, 890). For something to be infallible the church whether ordinary magesterium or universal it needs to excercise this charism.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Also i am not arguing that the magesterium of the elect from deacon to pope that this office is not divinely chosen by the LORD our God and in that sense of course is infallible for they are all called and chosen by The most holy trinity, none can say otherwise.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

And i am truly open still and always will be that i could be wrong, upon anything i say or think, so please don't think that i am demanding that i am correct and that all should believe what i say. I am not infallible.

[Nihil Obstat]

I am not infallible.

Clearly. But the Magisterium is.