Mortification

[vee]

anytime this subject comes up I cant help but think of this clip

[John Paul]

that is a odd penance.I would not like that and it looked like they were doing it in the streets and that way i would think one of them would get puffed up with pride thinkinh how the citizens must think how holy he is.Anyhoo I haven't heard of that penance.

[truthfinder]

that is a odd penance.I would not like that and it looked like they were doing it in the streets and that way i would think one of them would get puffed up with pride thinkinh how the citizens must think how holy he is.Anyhoo I haven't heard of that penance.

Umm, I think you're starting to show your age.  It's a spoof from Monty Python. 

[Sister Leticia]

Katherine - someone said early on that these penitential practices are more likely only to be found in monasteries following a stricter or more primitive version of their rule. Now, in another thread you said you were looking for a congregation "wearing habit, faithful to the church, educates their sisters, apostolic". I don't think any congregation like that would still practice corporal penances like taking the discipline. There might be other aspects of their lives which are physically penitential, though, such as plain food every day with hardly any sweets, or sleeping on mattresses on the floor as the CFRs do or a long, tiring day in a demanding apostolate - but that's different. And then there are what Sr Mary Catharine referred to as "interior mortifications", and all sorts of challenges, asceticisms and reminders of obedience - many little, interior ways to let God be God, without needing to go out and look for them!

But if you are called to a community you would receive the grace to live the life. That doesn't mean it would be easy - but it does mean God is faithful and will give you what you need to fulfil and flourish in what he has called you to.

The only other thing I would say is that it's good to look at where the anxiety comes from, and try to see what it's really all about and where it might be taking you.

 

[truthfinder]

I wanted to respond to the "aha gotcha" comment: hopefully this is clear, because sometimes I don't even understand what I'm saying.

Giving the full benefit of charity, I would think there might be a couple reasons a community might not tell a discerner about corporal mortification.  1. It can in some ways become an obsession for the discerner; just as another might be constantly concerned about how often they'd see their family, or if there are pets. 2. It invites all sort of weird curiosity by those who do not understand the purpose or the history of it. 3. It can be introduced as a just one of many facets of religious life.  Just as a nun might be slowly introduced to midnight risings (like one Poor Clare convent I know), it's introduced as part of the 'whole package' of religious life and thus becomes just a part of the spirituality. The Nashville Dominicans' website says (or at least used to) that they have various prayer traditions which you learn over the year, and which are meant to be kept private as a facet of their community. Communities not disclosing corporal mortification are probably thinking upon the same lines. 

I think if it is really a non-negotiable for you, you need to bring it up rather soon in your discussion with a community.  Any good community should address it directly when asked; at the same time you might not get details of what sort of penances they do.  In asking one community, the answer I received was that any penances done by the sisters were tempered by charity and prudence - for me, that was a sufficient answer.  If such an answer is not for you, move on to the next community. 

[Benedictus]

Why are you so against mortifications? They're not meant to harm you or scar you, just be uncomfortable or annoying as a means of purification. Most communities, especially monastic ones, have some sort of practice. This can be things such as bowing, kneeling down, missing a meal, eating alone etc. Opus Dei uses a chain, mostly by numeraries, for a period each day under supervision. But it's more regular to have cold showers, sleep on the floor at certain times, abstain from certain foods or to not use a pillow etc. I have friends from University who belong to them and it's nothing sinister.  A community may well think you naive, immature or unsuited if you ask questions that seem like you want a comfortable life without mortifications to help train you. So I'd think about how you ask and be wary of saying you'd not join if they do certain things in a blanket way without seeking to know more about it.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Benedictus

[SNJM]

An interesting "trend" I've encountered in my SD with those discerners I work with - communities seem to be much more forthright right away about physical mortification (like the old penances we are talking about). It seems they have had women enter who were either completely freaked out or uncomfortable and as a result, they now disclose it immediately. And yes, the communities I personally know who practice this tend to be reformed, primitive Communities, though the Passionists practice corporeal mortification & I'm not sure they would fit in that category!

I found TradMom's list a while ago and use it - to whoever reminded us of it, thanks. Great considerations & questions.

All in all, whatever it might be - ask! They are asking millions about you - please do not downplay your role in this process!

Rose

 

[truthfinder]

 though the Passionists practice corporeal mortification & I'm not sure they would fit in that category!

 

 

There was an article done several years ago that discussed the Passionists' use of the discipline.  However, the Whitesville Passionists (perhaps the best known on PM) have been rather forthcoming on their website that they do not use the discipline. 

[Nunsense]

Why are you so against mortifications? They're not meant to harm you or scar you, just be uncomfortable or annoying as a means of purification. Most communities, especially monastic ones, have some sort of practice. This can be things such as bowing, kneeling down, missing a meal, eating alone etc. Opus Dei uses a chain, mostly by numeraries, for a period each day under supervision. But it's more regular to have cold showers, sleep on the floor at certain times, abstain from certain foods or to not use a pillow etc. I have friends from University who belong to them and it's nothing sinister.  A community may well think you naive, immature or unsuited if you ask questions that seem like you want a comfortable life without mortifications to help train you. So I'd think about how you ask and be wary of saying you'd not join if they do certain things in a blanket way without seeking to know more about it.

I humbly disagree Ben. A community will not think you naive, immature or unsuited for asking perfectly sensible questions. If it doesn't understand the reasons for asking, then perhaps it is more cult-like than community like and one should be wary of 'warning, danger, Will Robinson' signs. Any issue should be able to be discussed with someone who is hoping to enter for life (not simply a curious bystander).

I personally know of communities that do use the discipline as part of their routine. In one, I did not know at the time I entered that they used it,  but was made aware while still a postulant,when I was handed a discipline in a small bag and told what to do. The Prioress then asked me if I thought they should tell candidates about this prior to entering or not - she was very sincerely trying to do what was right. She said they prefer to keep these things private, within the community, so had never told anyone before, but she understood that in today's climate, it could be a serious issue for some women, especially as some forms of physical mortification could possibly be considered sexually arousing. I was instructed by my Novice Mistress that if this occurred at any time, I was to immediately cease the use of the discipline and speak to her about it at a later date. I suggested to the Prioress that if a woman was seriously discerning with them, they should let her know at some point before she entered about this practice. To my knowledge, she did so from then on as it was a deal breaker for some women.

There were certainly other mortifications in all of the convents, such as kneeling on wood floors, using cold water etc,but I doubt these are really serious issues for most women. The use of physical items to cause bodily distress (such as the discipline or the cilice) however, can raise concerns unless they are explained properly and used appropriately so as not to cause actual physical harm to the body. The discipline was explained to me as more of a symbol of unity with Christ's whipping, rather than an actual instrument of physical punishment, but one only has to watch the Da Vinci Code to see such a practice carried not only to excess, but to extremely dangerous limits. And yes, I know this is fiction, but people who carry things to extremes can be found in any walk of life.

If a person doesn't feel free to ask a community anything prior to entering (that impacts on their well-being, then this would be a cause of concern in my mind.

Edited July 25, 2015 by nunsense

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

I wouldn't think someone was immature or naive if she asked what our practices of mortification are. For myself, I have never been attracted to communities that engage in external "artificial" mortifications. After nearly 25 years of monastic life I can honestly say that those are much easier than the things are a part of everyday monastic life and the challenge to be faithful doesn't get any easier! I talked to the older sisters who did do external mortifications and they said the same thing.

[Benedictus]

Sure, I'm not saying transparency and asking questions is a bad thing. Where I think negative criticism could come in is if a person says they feel a possible vocation to the community but that they definitely won't join if they do certain mortifications.Communities sometimes hear lots of entry needs from people - I feel called to your community and would join but you don't have a habit, so I won't. If you stop this or introduce that then I may apply etc.

Sure, people have an idea of the life they feel called to but it can seem like the personal requirements could come before the calling. If God wants someone to join a specific community then should practices the person dislikes in that community stop them applying? Shouldn't it be a bit more considered than that?

I think it's a matter of tone, tact and attitude on how things are asked and conducted. I guess that was my main point. If it's done badly by the seeker then I think the community may well draw a negative impression of the person. So I think they should think well about how they present their view and attitude about such practices.

[MarysLittleFlower]

What would be an example of a reformed primitive community except the discalced Carmelites? Are Benedictines or Franciscans?

I have to say that I totally agree with only doing these mortification with direction and in a way that leads to virtue... I think in the Dialogues Our Lord spoke to St Catherine how they are not in themselves virtuous (these penances) rather can lead to virtue.

I don't know at all the OPs concern with mortification and I don't mean this about her, but I'm a little confused why *in general* there's such an issue about it today? I mean why wasn't it an issue before but is today? It bothers me how the first thing that comes to peoples minds is either excess or some sort of twisted sexual thing..  Rather than sharing in the Passion. Its not necessarily anyone's fault I think its just our culture. But I think our culture is incorrect in this.

Sure if a woman was abused in the past she might struggle with this. And its fine I think for a novice mistress or mother superior to give the advice that it should be stopped if it becomes a temptation. But I think in the past the fear of temptation was mostly about pride, and today people often think of something sexual - just based on how society tends to view it. Its fine for a community to warn of that to novices. But I just don'tunderstand why today this is what people think of. I am notleaving myself out cause I grew up in the same culture. But this is sort of a reminder to me to limit exposure to society's views and try to not be influenced by them.

I mean it bothers me how today everything has to be sexual even pain of all things. (Or in this case discomfort). I understand the fear if someone was abused. But other times in general is this not a symptom of our culture being influenced by perversions? ( I'm calling it what it is).

Another common fear is excess, which is more of a common fear, and the solution to this is if course direction. But it seems before modern times people didn't have afear of this, though direction was the same in prudence. Is it our fear of pain? Or something else? I'm not commenting on the OP... But on general concerns that come up often. If I was in a community and a new nun expressed fear of this, for ANY reason, I believe in being understanding and patient with her. And things like obedience are greater than penance. Spiritual mortification is also more difficult and more profitable than corporal.

But I do wonder why this is such a controversial topic today... I don't mean a particular nun having concerns... Or aparticular woman discerning... But the culture. 

Sure, I'm not saying transparency and asking questions is a bad thing. Where I think negative criticism could come in is if a person says they feel a possible vocation to the community but that they definitely won't join if they do certain mortifications.Communities sometimes hear lots of entry needs from people - I feel called to your community and would join but you don't have a habit, so I won't. If you stop this or introduce that then I may apply etc.

Sure, people have an idea of the life they feel called to but it can seem like the personal requirements could come before the calling. If God wants someone to join a specific community then should practices the person dislikes in that community stop them applying? Shouldn't it be a bit more considered than that?

I think it's a matter of tone, tact and attitude on how things are asked and conducted. I guess that was my main point. If it's done badly by the seeker then I think the community may well draw a negative impression of the person. So I think they should think well about how they present their view and attitude about such practices.

if someone has a deeply personal reason, like past abuse, I think that is different from disliking a custom... But if its only dislike, I think its good to try and surrender that to God but if its really bothering someone maybe they could enter another community, or maybe it could help speaking to someone about this difficulty and addressing specific fears (like excess or anything else). 

Edited July 25, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Lilllabettt]

Sure if a woman was abused in the past she might struggle with this. And its fine I think for a novice mistress or mother superior to give the advice that it should be stopped if it becomes a temptation. But I think in the past the fear of temptation was mostly about pride, and today people often think of something sexual - just based on how society tends to view it. Its fine for a community to warn of that to novices. But I just don't understand why today this is what people think of. I am not leaving myself out cause I grew up in the same culture. But this is sort of a reminder to me to limit exposure to society's views and try to not be influenced by them.

I mean it bothers me how today everything has to be sexual even pain of all things. (Or in this case discomfort). I understand the fear if someone was abused. But other times in general is this not a symptom of our culture being influenced by perversions? ( I'm calling it what it is).

 

There is nothing new under the sun, and BDSM has always been a sexual proclivity in some portion of the population. It's seems suddenly "controversial" now just because people now talk about it.  In days gone by there was no internet, and people didn't discuss such things with their neighbors over afternoon tea.

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[truthfinder]

Lilllabettt's got it in regards to mortification itself, but many spiritual authors (including several saints over the centuries) have also cautioned about the possibility of sexual arousal while meditating.  There has definitely been a lurid fascination with penance - it's part of the reason why anti-convent literature was so successful in the 1700-1800s in the US. It's not so much that various sexual practices weren't discussed (or portrayed in popular publications), it's just that now it's deemed acceptable within the broader social sphere.

I wanted to add, though, that I would much sooner join a convent that practiced the discipline every day than a convent where they had the propensity of eating whatever food they received, no matter what shape it was in.

Edited July 25, 2015 by truthfinder

[beatitude]

As well as what Lilllabettt and Truthfinder have said, it's worth noting that physical mortification wasn't universal in the past. St Francis de Sales did not emphasise such penances, for example, so they have never been a feature of life in Visitation monasteries. Each community has always had its own approach, and what's good for one person is not necessarily good for another. Personally I would not find it particularly difficult to use the discipline, but I doubt it would help me much - for me the greatest mortification is not showing my crankiness when I'm tired. I need a lot of sleep and get grumpy when I don't have it, and wrestling with my temper on those days is easily the most challenging penance I face. I think sometimes we are tempted to view 'extra' penance as somehow better than the penance that comes through fulfilling our daily duty faithfully and unflinchingly.

What would be an example of a reformed primitive community except the discalced Carmelites? Are Benedictines or Franciscans?

Cistercians are reformed or 'primitive' Benedictines. There are communities following a primitive rule within the Franciscan tradition too - Poor Clare Colettines, for example. But not all primitive or reformed communities necessarily practise corporal mortification.

[Nunsense]

 

I have to say that I totally agree with only doing these mortification with direction and in a way that leads to virtue... I think in the Dialogues Our Lord spoke to St Catherine how they are not in themselves virtuous (these penances) rather can lead to virtue.

I don't know at all the OPs concern with mortification and I don't mean this about her, but I'm a little confused why *in general* there's such an issue about it today? I mean why wasn't it an issue before but is today? It bothers me how the first thing that comes to peoples minds is either excess or some sort of twisted sexual thing..  Rather than sharing in the Passion. Its not necessarily anyone's fault I think its just our culture. But I think our culture is incorrect in this.

Sure if a woman was abused in the past she might struggle with this. And its fine I think for a novice mistress or mother superior to give the advice that it should be stopped if it becomes a temptation. But I think in the past the fear of temptation was mostly about pride, and today people often think of something sexual - just based on how society tends to view it. Its fine for a community to warn of that to novices. But I just don'tunderstand why today this is what people think of. I am notleaving myself out cause I grew up in the same culture. But this is sort of a reminder to me to limit exposure to society's views and try to not be influenced by them.

I mean it bothers me how today everything has to be sexual even pain of all things. (Or in this case discomfort). I understand the fear if someone was abused. But other times in general is this not a symptom of our culture being influenced by perversions? ( I'm calling it what it is).

Another common fear is excess, which is more of a common fear, and the solution to this is if course direction. But it seems before modern times people didn't have afear of this, though direction was the same in prudence. Is it our fear of pain? Or something else? I'm not commenting on the OP... But on general concerns that come up often. If I was in a community and a new nun expressed fear of this, for ANY reason, I believe in being understanding and patient with her. And things like obedience are greater than penance. Spiritual mortification is also more difficult and more profitable than corporal.

But I do wonder why this is such a controversial topic today... I don't mean a particular nun having concerns... Or aparticular woman discerning... But the culture. 

if someone has a deeply personal reason, like past abuse, I think that is different from disliking a custom... But if its only dislike, I think its good to try and surrender that to God but if its really bothering someone maybe they could enter another community, or maybe it could help speaking to someone about this difficulty and addressing specific fears (like excess or anything else). 

 

I think one thing we have to remember is that different cultures in different times find different things acceptable and/or unacceptable. There are customs in the Philippines at Easter, for example, that horrify me, but obviously they consider doing them a great honour and perhaps even holy. Ordinary men not only undertake self-flagellation and other mortifications, they actually take it as far as enacting out the crucifixion, with real nails being driven into their hands. If you read the description below from Wikipedia, you will note that 'these customs are strongly discouraged by the Catholic Church in the Philippines, which considers them to be fanatical, superstitious expressions of Folk Catholicism and self-harm contrary to its teachings on the body.'  (emphasis mine, colours Wikipedia's)  And yet, men do it very year because they believe it is a penance for their sins and expresses gratitude for favours shown.

So it does us well to remember that while some people find things like the discipline and cilice to be holy, not everyone in every culture considers self-flagellation to be a 'normal' mortification. To some, it can just seem fanatical and obsessive. That being the case, a person who has a strong aversion (either culturally, psychologically, physically or spiritually) to such mortifications as the discipline or the cilice, should not be made to feel that they are somehow less holy than those who are accepting of these practices. One can be just as holy in a community that does not do these things, and in fact, as has been mentioned many times, there are plenty of other mortifications in any community living environment that can test one's patience and charity and 'holiness'.

I also disagree that one need be a victim of abuse to see an element of sexual self-gratification in a practice that stimulates the physical senses in an unnatural way. Pleasure and pain are very closely connected and denial of any sense can cause an increase in another - witness blind people usually being able to hear better than those with sight. I have personally never been abused in any way and yet I find some of these practices to be bordering on a pathway to sexual substitution/gratification. Sounds harsh, perhaps, but something to think about.

And although initially I had no objection to using the discipline in the convent, I later began to see it as a bizarre and out of date ritual, which only seemed even more peculiar because it was carried out in a pitch black room with the entire community. I can honestly say I never felt prayerful at this time (actually it was all very embarrassing) and certainly couldn't think of Jesus when I was listening to the sounds of 14 or so women whipping themselves in the dark to the recitation of the Miserere - I just waited for it to end. As a meditation technique, it was woeful, and as a mortification, well - apart from feeling like an idiot, I doubt that it increased my virtue or holiness to any great degree, but then who am I to judge? I do know that I found much greater mortifications in simply living in community. And I am sure that I was a much greater mortification to others than the discipline was. But just my opinion, of course.  

 

=========================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_in_the_Philippines 

Crucifixion in the Philippines is a devotional practice held every Good Friday, and are part of the local observance of Holy Week. Devotees or penitents called magdarame in Kapampanganare willingly crucified in imitation of Jesus Christ's suffering and death, while related practices are carry wooden crosses, crawling on rough pavement, and self-flagellation. Penitents considered these acts to be mortification of the flesh, and undertake these to ask forgiveness for sins, to fulfil a panatà (Filipino, "vow"), or to express gratitude for favours granted.

These customs are strongly discouraged by the Catholic Church in the Philippines, which considers them to be fanatical, superstitious expressions of Folk Catholicism and self-harm contrary to its teachings on the body. The Department of Health meanwhile often insists that participants in the rites should have tetanus shots and that the nails used should be sterilized.^[1]

 

 

Edited July 26, 2015 by nunsense

[SNJM]

I would also like to add the consideration of thinking about our relationship with God as  something extremely intimate, and along the lines of what Nunsuch said, the line between pleasure & pain is very thin, fine thing. I would ask that those of you who have had really deep, intimate, true experiences of God reflect upon how it can awaken your entire being. Bernini's sculpture of St. Teresa in ectasy is a great example. Adding physical touch to the mix, even if it's our own, with or without an instrument, can lead to confusion.

I wanted to add something my own SD, the former Carthusian I've mentioned before, said. In talking about physical penances, I was very surprised to hear how fast he personally adjusted to wearing the hair shirt. He said that it would have been much worse if they had two months off and then two months on. For him, he said the hardest penance was eating the many sweets, cookies, cakes - whatever - that were sent to the Charterhouse at Christmas and Easter. Out of poverty, they ate them, but he told me they couldn't wait to get back to their usual diet as the "overdose" of dessert items left them in a foggy lethargy. So, in reflection, it's really all very individual and not always what one would think!

Rose

 

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just out of interest, do Benedictine communities do these sorts of penances? I mean Benedictines in general not Cistercians.

Thanks for the replies to my question.  I see what you all are saying but I guess I dont really see these mortifications as something outdated. I wouldn't compare them to the enactment of the Crucifixion in the Philippines because that is discouraged by the Church while the other penances are allowed with prudence. I think the difference might be that they are done in moderation and not to injure the body. I certainly agree that it should only be done with direction, and that there can be various temptations. I also agree that spiritual mortification is safer and more difficult at the same time. I have never tried corporal mortification like that myself but I believe that accepting trials allowed by God and humiliations is safer spiritually and does a lot sanctification I wouldn't say that those who don't do these penances are less holy. But I don't think that they are wrong to do if done properly.  

[puellapaschalis]

Just out of interest, do Benedictine communities do these sorts of penances? I mean Benedictines in general not Cistercians.

OSB houses are autonomous; it varies.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I would also like to add the consideration of thinking about our relationship with God as  something extremely intimate, and along the lines of what Nunsuch said, the line between pleasure & pain is very thin, fine thing. I would ask that those of you who have had really deep, intimate, true experiences of God reflect upon how it can awaken your entire being. Bernini's sculpture of St. Teresa in ectasy is a great example. Adding physical touch to the mix, even if it's our own, with or without an instrument, can lead to confusion.

I wanted to add something my own SD, the former Carthusian I've mentioned before, said. In talking about physical penances, I was very surprised to hear how fast he personally adjusted to wearing the hair shirt. He said that it would have been much worse if they had two months off and then two months on. For him, he said the hardest penance was eating the many sweets, cookies, cakes - whatever - that were sent to the Charterhouse at Christmas and Easter. Out of poverty, they ate them, but he told me they couldn't wait to get back to their usual diet as the "overdose" of dessert items left them in a foggy lethargy. So, in reflection, it's really all very individual and not always what one would think!

Rose

 

 

 

That's quite an amusing story I see what you mean about confusion... I actually read something from one of the Carmelite Saints about how a person can at first get disturbing feelings during spiritual consolation, but over time this goes away as the person gets purified. Consolations get more spiritual and when the body begins to share in them in a different way. At the time St Teresa would have had the ecstasy and the piercing of her heart, she was in a quite advanced stage of mental prayer this is at least my understanding! But based on those beginning stages, perhaps its more prudent to avoid those types of penances if those feelings are a difficulty during prayer.