Mortification

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think one thing we have to remember is that different cultures in different times find different things acceptable and/or unacceptable. There are customs in the Philippines at Easter, for example, that horrify me, but obviously they consider doing them a great honour and perhaps even holy. Ordinary men not only undertake self-flagellation and other mortifications, they actually take it as far as enacting out the crucifixion, with real nails being driven into their hands. If you read the description below from Wikipedia, you will note that 'these customs are strongly discouraged by the Catholic Church in the Philippines, which considers them to be fanatical, superstitious expressions of Folk Catholicism and self-harm contrary to its teachings on the body.'  (emphasis mine, colours Wikipedia's)  And yet, men do it very year because they believe it is a penance for their sins and expresses gratitude for favours shown.

So it does us well to remember that while some people find things like the discipline and cilice to be holy, not everyone in every culture considers self-flagellation to be a 'normal' mortification. To some, it can just seem fanatical and obsessive. That being the case, a person who has a strong aversion (either culturally, psychologically, physically or spiritually) to such mortifications as the discipline or the cilice, should not be made to feel that they are somehow less holy than those who are accepting of these practices. One can be just as holy in a community that does not do these things, and in fact, as has been mentioned many times, there are plenty of other mortifications in any community living environment that can test one's patience and charity and 'holiness'.

I also disagree that one need be a victim of abuse to see an element of sexual self-gratification in a practice that stimulates the physical senses in an unnatural way. Pleasure and pain are very closely connected and denial of any sense can cause an increase in another - witness blind people usually being able to hear better than those with sight. I have personally never been abused in any way and yet I find some of these practices to be bordering on a pathway to sexual substitution/gratification. Sounds harsh, perhaps, but something to think about.

And although initially I had no objection to using the discipline in the convent, I later began to see it as a bizarre and out of date ritual, which only seemed even more peculiar because it was carried out in a pitch black room with the entire community. I can honestly say I never felt prayerful at this time (actually it was all very embarrassing) and certainly couldn't think of Jesus when I was listening to the sounds of 14 or so women whipping themselves in the dark to the recitation of the Miserere - I just waited for it to end. As a meditation technique, it was woeful, and as a mortification, well - apart from feeling like an idiot, I doubt that it increased my virtue orcourse.  

 

=========================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_in_the_Philippines 

Crucifixion in the Philippines is a devotional practice held every Good Friday, and are part of the local observance of Holy Week. Devotees or penitents called magdarame in Kapampanganare willingly crucified in imitation of Jesus Christ's suffering and death, while related practices are carry wooden crosses, crawling on rough pavement, and self-flagellation. Penitents considered these acts to be mortification of the flesh, and undertake these to ask forgiveness for sins, to fulfil a panatà (Filipino, "vow"), or to express gratitude for favours granted.

These customs are strongly discouraged by the Catholic Church in the Philippines, which considers them to be fanatical, superstitious expressions of Folk Catholicism and self-harm contrary to its teachings on the body. The Department of Health meanwhile often insists that participants in the rites should have tetanus shots and that the nails used should be sterilized.^[1]

 

 

I think the difference about the event in the Philippines is that it is not accepted by the Church... I tend to think things like the discipline are not in themselves ways of sexual gratification but there could be a temptationthat is separate from the act itself. For example there areSaints who didthese penances but had an extreme horror of anything unchaste. However I think in acommunity i would prefer anything like that done in ones cell and not together but thats just me! I think meditation on thePassion would be very important

[Nunsense]

Just out of interest, do Benedictine communities do these sorts of penances? I mean Benedictines in general not Cistercians.

Thanks for the replies to my question.  I see what you all are saying but I guess I dont really see these mortifications as something outdated. I wouldn't compare them to the enactment of the Crucifixion in the Philippines because that is discouraged by the Church while the other penances are allowed with prudence. I think the difference might be that they are done in moderation and not to injure the body. I certainly agree that it should only be done with direction, and that there can be various temptations. I also agree that spiritual mortification is safer and more difficult at the same time. I have never tried corporal mortification like that myself but I believe that accepting trials allowed by God and humiliations is safer spiritually and does a lot sanctification I wouldn't say that those who don't do these penances are less holy. But I don't think that they are wrong to do if done properly.  

I think the main point is that these particular types of mortifications (discipline and cilice for example) are too personal to make a blanket statement about them other than that they should only be done under spiritual direction or supervision of a religious superior. 

You say that these mortifications aren't outdated because they are still allowed by the Church with prudence. To me, that indicates in itself that they are outdated. The Church does not 'recommend' these practices, they 'allow' them, and they are not something that every community does these days, and in fact, more communities do not do them than do. In the Carmels that I have been in, only one still used the discipline and even then there were concerned about reactions to it. This is an indication to me that this particular penance might not have the efficacy that it once did - cultures and times change. 

As for the sexual gratification issue - I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to say. The act of whipping oneself, of itself, is not necessarily a sexual one, and certainly nuns do not do this to try to achieve any kind of gratification. The opposite - they are trying to unite with a suffering Christ. The danger here is that it is a very physical act, and depending on how it is done, it can cause involuntary arousal - and that is why my Novice Mistress mentioned this to me. It certainly wasn't my idea, it was her warning.

As for whether or not you can do it in your cell alone or with others - that isn't your choice in a convent. One can imagine using it as St Teresa did in the fictionalized movie about her - on her shoulders, alone in her cell - it can all seem very romantic. But that was not the reality for me, which was that it was done in community,in the dark, and on a certain part of the bare anatomy that was not the shoulders. I did not feel holy doing it. And yet I was not given the choice as to which part of my body I would whip or where or what time or under what conditions. That was the real penance for me - the loss of freedom to make certain choices and decisions. Fortunately not all communities are as strict as that one was and many allow much more freedom of choice regarding certain things. But I can see why this could be a real issue for some applicants to religious life.

You say that these penances are not wrong if done properly. Just what constitutes properly is debatable though. One could say that if a community has done this particular penance for 100 years under the different Prioresses's direction, then it is done properly, but in my opinion, the way it was done was outdated and very similar to the Philippine 'folk Catholicism' with a total misunderstanding of the Church's teachings on the body. Just because something has always been done doesn't mean it always has to be done. 

So who defines proper? If one SD says you can whip yourself until you bleed, is that person correct? You are doing it under direction. There has to be a certain amount of common sense about such things, and since these practices open themselves to abuse, they are really less effective as penances than many other more sensible ones. After all, the method is not the goal, the result is. So if we can learn humility, charity and holiness through less bodily invasive methods, why not do so? In the end, we usually find that these methods are much harder in the long run because they involve a denial of self and a giving to others rather than just an act of self-harm to our bodies,which God created for us anyway! 

 

 

[marigold]

Good points, Nunsense.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Nunsense, I totally agree that the goal is not the method but the result. I guess for me I always struggle with the argument that something in the Church is outdated. I don't understand what this means.. I mean I tend to see it like everything we have in the Church that is devotional and approved can be used at any time. Maybe its because I came into the Church through older books and then found my spirituality in the Latin Mass... And a lot of my devotions are those that arent too popular today like the Holy Face devotion. Since so much in my spirituality could be considered not popular today, I find I struggle a bit with the argument of something being outdated. I tend to just ask - has it been approved. Apparently Pope JP2 did mortification - I don't know but in any case some today do - so I tend to treat it as traditionally has been... Fine to do if done with direction prudently humbly and of course one should stop if something happens like what you describe. I don't know... This is just my understanding! I see what you are trying to say... I guess I just struggle with the argument of something being outdated. God bless!

 

[beatitude]

Nunsense, I totally agree that the goal is not the method but the result. I guess for me I always struggle with the argument that something in the Church is outdated. I don't understand what this means.. I mean I tend to see it like everything we have in the Church that is devotional and approved can be used at any time. Maybe its because I came into the Church through older books and then found my spirituality in the Latin Mass... And a lot of my devotions are those that arent too popular today like the Holy Face devotion. Since so much in my spirituality could be considered not popular today, I find I struggle a bit with the argument of something being outdated. I tend to just ask - has it been approved. Apparently Pope JP2 did mortification - I don't know but in any case some today do - so I tend to treat it as traditionally has been... Fine to do if done with direction prudently humbly and of course one should stop if something happens like what you describe. I don't know... This is just my understanding! I see what you are trying to say... I guess I just struggle with the argument of something being outdated. God bless!

 

The Holy Face devotion isn't old. It only spread in the late 1800s, which makes it a pretty new way of prayer by the Church's 2000+-year-old standards. But the spirit of it - the focus on the incarnation of Christ, on his sacred and wounded humanity - goes all the way back to Mary's prayer at the moment of Gabriel's visit, and by the side of the crib in Bethlehem. People living in different places and at different times do not have exactly the same needs, so our faith finds different expressions according to what's needed. It's possible to see this in our own everyday lives. For example when I was working in a hospital ward for people with advanced dementia, I began to think more about heaven, and it affected the way I prayed. This was because I was working with people who were nearing the end of their lives, many of whom wanted to speak to me about that (one lady used to tell me "I want to go to the Lord" almost every day), and so I began to meditate on it and pray about it in a way I never had before. I'd never needed to before. We can see this on a bigger level as well: St Therese's 'Little Way' came along after the Jansenism that had harmed so many Christians by encouraging them to think about prayer in very legalistic terms and to trust too much in their own merits. The Little Way was badly needed at that time and it's no coincidence that St Therese began her mission then and not earlier or later. We will always feel drawn to different devotions according to our needs. I think this is what Nunsense meant.

The Church has always taught us to respect our bodies and not to inflict deliberate harm. In the past some people veered away from penance and into self-harm, and now the Church is very cautious with physical mortification because it's so easy for people to get drawn into these damaging habits. There are plenty of other ways to do penance that don't involve this risk. I shower in cold water on Fridays, which isn't pleasant, especially in winter. But it doesn't hurt me and I don't do it when I'm sick. I am also conscious that I am only doing what millions of people who lack heating, electricity, and proper sanitation have to do when they wash, and it reminds me to pray for them. I have found penance in my everyday routine. But I could never justify whipping myself, because this is going beyond mortification of the senses to causing actual hurt, and I don't see the point when daily life affords enough opportunities for self-denial and growth in faith anyway.

On a separate note - MarysLittleFlower, in the past you've mentioned that you were baptised as an Eastern Catholic. Presumably you must have received some teaching and guidance in Eastern spirituality before you were baptised. Do you still practise as an Eastern Catholic? I'm curious about many of the things you write, because your perspective on certain things is often quite different from how the Eastern Church would look at them. (I'm not saying that your perspective is wrong, just that it's not one I would associate with the East.)

Edited July 28, 2015 by beatitude

[Egeria]

The Church has always taught us to respect our bodies and not to inflict deliberate harm. In the past some people veered away from penance and into self-harm, and now the Church is very cautious with physical mortification because it's so easy for people to get drawn into these damaging habits. There are plenty of other ways to do penance that don't involve this risk. 

This.

Reading this thread, I have been thinking that there is a big distinction (for me at least, but I also think in Orthodox/Eastern tradition) between genuine asceticism, which is demanding and pushes our boundaries, but is orientated to a positive, transfigured life, and what I would see as distortions that seek pain for the sake of pain (or, worse, as a gateway to other passions). One of the things that concerns and saddens me is realizing that many Christians in the West, at least in my experience, have dismissed asceticism because it had become identified with sado-masochism. But in rejecting the unhealthy stuff, they have also rejected a genuine asceticism which is truly life-giving.

[Nunsense]

 

MLF- I think the problem we are having is simply one of interpretation here. When I describe something as outdated, I don't mean that it still doesn't have value, merely that as times change, so do attitudes and ways of looking at things. I, personally, am a very old fashioned sort of person and my house reflects this. I am particularly fond of the Victorian era, even though it was a very repressive time culturally. I love the clothes and the furniture etc. Anyway, my point is simply that as our understanding of human beings grows, we learn that certain things are like a two edged sword - they can be used for good or they can be abused. Physical mortification is one of those things. If you are a perfectly sensible person, who has a director with common sense, then for you, the physical mortifications might be something that would be of benefit to you.

My concern is that some things from the past can be viewed through a 'romantic' haze and appear to be more valuable than they actually are - because they are more dramatic and/or intense. As so many people on here have mentioned, there are so many incredibly effective ways to mortify oneself without doing actual physical bodily harm that one wonders why anyone would even want to do that kind of penance. But we do all have affinities, and if this is 'your thing', then simply be sure that you do it with care and common sense.

The OP stated that she has a 'serious fear of entering a community and finding out afterwards that they practice mortification of the flesh (not as in fasting, more like chains and flagellation)'. 

My posts have been in response to her concerns, rather than trying to address the penitential practices of any one individual. As I pointed out before, when one enters a community that engages in such practices, there is no consultation about how or when this is done. That is different than an individual who chooses to engage in a physical mortification and chooses how and when and how often, under direction.  The OP has every right to choose not to enter a community that engages in practices she fears, and she also has the right not to feel judged for this.

And finally, just because a holy person has done something in the past, does not mean that they did not do it to excess, or that they should be used as an example. St John of the Cross preached against physical mortifications and then wore a rope around his waist until it was cutting into his skin and made him bleed (probably getting infected as well). So, all I'm saying is don't assume that everything that was done in the past is necessarily something we should be doing now - at least not always in the same way. Remember that the devil can use things that seem holy to injure us. Some penances can lead one to feeling very self-satisfied and vain about their practices. Just a warning.

 

--------------

 

Beatitude and Egeria - Yes, here I agree. Asceticism is an entirely different kettle of fish than physical self-harm, although it can have similar dangers of leading to pride and vanity. A lot depends on the motivation and the method. The Buddhists have used asceticism as a part of their religious practices for centuries. For us Catholics, aligning one's self-denial with something like the suffering of the Third World is a good way to remember that not everyone is as fortunate as we are. We join ourselves with the rest of humanity. 

I like the cold water idea, B. When I lived as a hermit in the Australian bush, I had no electricity and had to use a wood stove for heat and to heat up water for washing and bathing. I had no toilet and had to use a bucket at night, which I would empty into a hole I would dig the next day. All my water came from rain tanks outside the cabin and I used a generator to pump the water from the main tank to the holding tank for gravity feed to the house. With no electricity, I also had no refrigeration and I could barely afford to pay for petrol for the generator, which I only ran for the water pump or briefly in the evenings for lights (usually I used candles and kerosene lanterns). I counted every watt of power! Most of my baths were simply buckets of warm water heated up on the wood stove. This asceticism was not a deliberate choice - it was due to poverty - but it did make me appreciate what we take for granted so much of the time in the First World, and I used the time to come closer to God through prayer. After I had found a source of income and moved out of the bush cabin into a town flat, I remember walking around the rooms, touching light switches, flushing the toilet, turning on hot water, and feeling that it was all such luxury and that we in our Western world are all blessed with so many material things.

So I think that performing some kind of asceticism can be an act of unity with all of the poor of the world - unity is really the basis of the MCs practice of still washing in buckets when they are in Western countries - one of the nuns told me that their sisters in India didn't have any other option, so they wanted to be in unity with them. For most of us, such continual asceticism is difficult, living in the world as we do, but the regular or occasional act of self-denial can be just as effective, if done consciously. And these little acts can range from something physical like a cold shower (sensible not to do it when one is ill!) or something material like denying oneself a much loved tasty treat, or especially something social, like offering to help someone with something or refusing to speak harshly when someone has frustrated us. Every day we are given opportunities to do 'penance' in tiny little ways.  We never have to look far to find ways to mortify ourselves.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by nunsense

[MarysLittleFlower]

Beatitude, I agree that God and the Church focus on different things for different times...  My understanding is that today the Church officially doesn't discourage corporal mortification less than before, it's just less common in our culture? It seems to me like many old are V2 authors were equally careful with it in terms of guiding away from pride or injuring the body... I know some Saints went further but they obeyed their directors when told to lessen it or stop, and I think they only went so far because of a desire to share in Christ's suffering. Of course it doesn't mean disfiguring the body or making yourself sick. I don't think they wanted that either... It just seems like at some point in spiritual growth, the person has such a strong desire to love God that they take risks without any fear or even too much reflection. An SD guided them as to the prudence in many cases they were asked to lessen the penance and in humility they obeyed.

to answer your question, I was baptised Eastern Orthodox as a pre-teen but we weren't practicing. I later became Protestant, then God lead me to the Sacraments and I came back to Orthodoxy for a very short time but then became Catholic through the Latin rite.  I guess you could say I had very little instruction in Orthodoxy - I had pre baptism courses but it was basic things I neededto know at that level, not spirituality. When I became Catholic it was through the Latin rite but canonically I am Eastern Catholic. There is no parish of my rite here so I attend a Latin parish. My spirituality is very Latin for this reason. I have been to Eastern Catholic parishes and I'm trying to learn more about the Eastern spirituality too, but I've been instructed in Latin spirituality more. My mistakes are my own

This.

Reading this thread, I have been thinking that there is a big distinction (for me at least, but I also think in Orthodox/Eastern tradition) between genuine asceticism, which is demanding and pushes our boundaries, but is orientated to a positive, transfigured life, and what I would see as distortions that seek pain for the sake of pain (or, worse, as a gateway to other passions). One of the things that concerns and saddens me is realizing that many Christians in the West, at least in my experience, have dismissed asceticism because it had become identified with sado-masochism. But in rejecting the unhealthy stuff, they have also rejected a genuine asceticism which is truly life-giving.

Egeria, I would disagree that its pain for the sake of pain... When I read the Saints I never got that impression... It didn't sound at all like they liked the pain itself and they weren't focused on themselves and neither was it a gateway to other passions for them... I mean it definitely wasn't a way to any sexual thing because they were so intent on perfect chastity. They were also careful against pride. From what it sounds like their only aim was to share in Christ's suffering somehow... The Church teaches asceticism as well. I think in Catholicism its both, not either just my impression but I never saw any focus on pain itself or enjoyment of pain in the Saints. Their approach was very spiritual. 

[marigold]

Ok, I think we're starting to go in circles now...

[MarysLittleFlower]

 

MLF- I think the problem we are having is simply one of interpretation here. When I describe something as outdated, I don't mean that it still doesn't have value, merely that as times change, so do attitudes and ways of looking at things. I, personally, am a very old fashioned sort of person and my house reflects this. I am particularly fond of the Victorian era, even though it was a very repressive time culturally. I love the clothes and the furniture etc. Anyway, my point is simply that as our understanding of human beings grows, we learn that certain things are like a two edged sword - they can be used for good or they can be abused. Physical mortification is one of those things. If you are a perfectly sensible person, who has a director with common sense, then for you, the physical mortifications might be something that would be of benefit to you.

My concern is that some things from the past can be viewed through a 'romantic' haze and appear to be more valuable than they actually are - because they are more dramatic and/or intense. As so many people on here have mentioned, there are so many incredibly effective ways to mortify oneself without doing actual physical bodily harm that one wonders why anyone would even want to do that kind of penance. But we do all have affinities, and if this is 'your thing', then simply be sure that you do it with care and common sense.

The OP stated that she has a 'serious fear of entering a community and finding out afterwards that they practice mortification of the flesh (not as in fasting, more like chains and flagellation)'. 

My posts have been in response to her concerns, rather than trying to address the penitential practices of any one individual. As I pointed out before, when one enters a community that engages in such practices, there is no consultation about how or when this is done. That is different than an individual who chooses to engage in a physical mortification and chooses how and when and how often, under direction.  The OP has every right to choose not to enter a community that engages in practices she fears, and she also has the right not to feel judged for this.

And finally, just because a holy person has done something in the past, does not mean that they did not do it to excess, or that they should be used as an example. St John of the Cross preached against physical mortifications and then wore a rope around his waist until it was cutting into his skin and made him bleed (probably getting infected as well). So, all I'm saying is don't assume that everything that was done in the past is necessarily something we should be doing now - at least not always in the same way. Remember that the devil can use things that seem holy to injure us. Some penances can lead one to feeling very self-satisfied and vain about their practices. Just a warning.

 

--------------

 

Beatitude and Egeria - Yes, here I agree. Asceticism is an entirely different kettle of fish than physical self-harm, although it can have similar dangers of leading to pride and vanity. A lot depends on the motivation and the method. The Buddhists have used asceticism as a part of their religious practices for centuries. For us Catholics, aligning one's self-denial with something like the suffering of the Third World is a good way to remember that not everyone is as fortunate as we are. We join ourselves with the rest of humanity. 

I like the cold water idea, B. When I lived as a hermit in the Australian bush, I had no electricity and had to use a wood stove for heat and to heat up water for washing and bathing. I had no toilet and had to use a bucket at night, which I would empty into a hole I would dig the next day. All my water came from rain tanks outside the cabin and I used a generator to pump the water from the main tank to the holding tank for gravity feed to the house. With no electricity, I also had no refrigeration and I could barely afford to pay for petrol for the generator, which I only ran for the water pump or briefly in the evenings for lights (usually I used candles and kerosene lanterns). I counted every watt of power! Most of my baths were simply buckets of warm water heated up on the wood stove. This asceticism was not a deliberate choice - it was due to poverty - but it did make me appreciate what we take for granted so much of the time in the First World, and I used the time to come closer to God through prayer. After I had found a source of income and moved out of the bush cabin into a town flat, I remember walking around the rooms, touching light switches, flushing the toilet, turning on hot water, and feeling that it was all such luxury and that we in our Western world are all blessed with so many material things.

So I think that performing some kind of asceticism can be an act of unity with all of the poor of the world - unity is really the basis of the MCs practice of still washing in buckets when they are in Western countries - one of the nuns told me that their sisters in India didn't have any other option, so they wanted to be in unity with them. For most of us, such continual asceticism is difficult, living in the world as we do, but the regular or occasional act of self-denial can be just as effective, if done consciously. And these little acts can range from something physical like a cold shower (sensible not to do it when one is ill!) or something material like denying oneself a much loved tasty treat, or especially something social, like offering to help someone with something or refusing to speak harshly when someone has frustrated us. Every day we are given opportunities to do 'penance' in tiny little ways.  We never have to look far to find ways to mortify ourselves.

 

 

i see what you mean Nunsense I agree with many things you say here. I agree it can be vain. Of course asceticism can be too so can any spiritual practice. I remember St John spoke much ofthese types of warnings so i believe his own mortification was humble. By the way, I don't do these penances and I don't plan to right now unless my SD thinks I should. I'm just speaking about others. I enjoyed reading about your experience about living in the wilderness!

[vee]

Speaking of going in circles reminds me of the mortifying, penitential pilgrimage of Lough Derg

[MarysLittleFlower]

Nunsense: "As so many people on here have mentioned, there are so many incredibly effective ways to mortify oneself without doing actual physical bodily harm that one wonders why anyone would even want to do that kind of penance. But we do all have affinities, and if this is 'your thing', then simply be sure that you do it with care and common sense."

I just forgot to add, I think that while of course a person is not obligated to do these kinds of penances, and spiritual penances such as accepting humiliations can be safer, - some are drawn to these particular penances because of a desire to share in aspects of the Passion like the Scourging. Maybe people are drawn to meditating on various aspects of the Passion at different times in their life... 

By the way, I could sort of relate to what you said before about the comforts we have in the West... My grandmother had a little house in another country that is a developed country but her house was in a very rural area. I went there in the summers as a kid. There was no phone, no plumbing ( we brought water from the well) though there was electricity. Yet it was my favourite place as a kid. The water was delicious, I could just run around through the fields and it was right beside a large forest (just wilderness). The houses are made of logs. Its so different now where I live, and I remember coming here to North America as a kid everything seemed very luxurious. But I think I appreciate the way my grandma lived because although its more challenging physically, its somehow less constraining too. 

[Nunsense]

 MLF- I think I have said all I want to say on this subject. We do seem to be going around in circles. I don't think you fully understand what I have been trying to say and you seem to want to defend the practice for some reason, when I am not attacking it - just addressing the concerns of the OP and cautioning about excesses. But I'm happy to leave it here, for me anyway.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

OK I'm sorry if I didn't understand. Some of the posts just sounded to me like the practice is disliked though not rejected as part of Church tradition. (I mean posts by various posters). Maybe I'm just reminded of some other discussions I've had. We are sort of going in circles

Edited July 30, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower