"Relationship" with God

[MarysLittleFlower]

If God does seem silent to a person, what could help? I mean at times we all experience that. I liked what St Therese said about Jesus sleeping and not wanting to wake Him was it St Therese? Someone said it for sure. We can just love Him in that silence. However of course its normal to want a more noticeable relationship. I found for me at times the cause of silence was distrust, and other times I don't know. It can also just be a trial and actually help in our growth .

 

[beatitude]

If God does seem silent to a person, what could help? I mean at times we all experience that. I liked what St Therese said about Jesus sleeping and not wanting to wake Him was it St Therese? Someone said it for sure. We can just love Him in that silence. However of course its normal to want a more noticeable relationship. I found for me at times the cause of silence was distrust, and other times I don't know. It can also just be a trial and actually help in our growth .

 

Mother Teresa was once asked by a reporter what she said to God in prayer. She replied, "I listen." When the reporter asked what God was telling her, she replied, "He's listening too."

I don't think silence is necessarily even a trial. When my best friend visited me (we live in separate countries now) we didn't spend every moment of our time together. But even when she was writing in her room and I was happily drinking tea in the garden I knew she was about somewhere, and it was enough. When you are very close to someone you don't have to talk all the time. This is a poor analogy, because with God silence is much more than that - after all, it wasn't earthquake and fire that took Elijah to the mouth of the cave, but "the sound of sheer silence". I still get goosebumps when I read that scripture.

[Nunsense]

I'm with beatitude on this. God is IN the silence. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I see what you mean that sometimes we can be with God and just be silent with Him. I like doing that in Adoration sometimes. I realise I meant something else, more like spiritual desolation where you can't seem to find God in the first place. Then its just faith I believe He allows that for a reason though. 

[Nunsense]

I see what you mean that sometimes we can be with God and just be silent with Him. I like doing that in Adoration sometimes. I realise I meant something else, more like spiritual desolation where you can't seem to find God in the first place. Then its just faith I believe He allows that for a reason though. 

I mean, He literally is in the silence. He IS the silence.   "Be still and know that I am God."  You are seeking Him when He is already there!  

[MarysLittleFlower]

That's true, He's still there I think St John wrote how in desolation the person isn't aware of God because God is acting in some way that we aren't able to perceive where we are spiritually. (He was speaking of dark nights though not dryness that is due to lack of prayer or unrepented sin)

[Nunsense]

Actually a 'dark night' isn't always about desolation. A good book to read to understand John better is St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross' (Edith Stein) last work, 'The Science of the Cross'. A lot of people get confused about desolation and dark night.

 

Plus, a good understanding of desolation can be found in books on Ignatian spirituality, and the introduction to the discernment of spirits.

http://www.ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits 

Edited August 8, 2015 by nunsense

[MarysLittleFlower]

Interesting thanks! I seem to recall prayer of quiet can involve a passive purification like a dark night though there's no sense of God's absense .. Something like that or no? (Maybe I got something confused .. Its all really deep)

By the way the rule of discernment in that link is good!

[Nunsense]

Interesting thanks! I seem to recall prayer of quiet can involve a passive purification like a dark night though there's no sense of God's absense .. Something like that or no? (Maybe I got something confused .. Its all really deep)

By the way the rule of discernment in that link is good!

It's not a good idea (in my opinion) to try to simplify John's work into bite size pieces but rather, to digest and savor it as a whole meal that takes time to enjoy. You could be reading him for decades and still spend time trying to understand him. He was a giant. A priest who writes well about St John, and who makes him palatable and easier to absorb is Father Iain Matthew. If you haven't read it, The Impact of God is a good one:  http://www.amazon.com/The-Impact-God-Soundings-Paperbacks/dp/0340612576 

Here is Father Iain playing around at one of the Carmels where I lived. I asked him to be my spiritual director but he was focused on his writing at that time. I did get to read his PhD thesis though - it was on the hypothesis of whether or not Jesus went through what St John described as the Dark Night of the Soul. Very heavy reading but fascinating.

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Haven't heard of Fr Iain before!  What is he up to in the picture? Haha... by the way I've only read parts of Dark Night Of The Soul but I have St John's collected works 

Someday planning to read it  

I started with the poems 

Edit: Looks like a good book!

Edited August 8, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nunsense]

Haven't heard of Fr Iain before! by the way I've only read parts of Dark Night Of The Soul but I have St John's collected works 

Someday planning to read it  

I started with the poems 

He writes in poetry (he is considered one of the foremost poets of Spain) and then for some of the poems he has written commentaries as well. My favorites are the Spiritual Canticle and the Living Flame of Love, and I think one should read these first because they represent the destination. The Dark Night and The Ascent cover the journey.

Fr Iain Matthews is considered an expert on St John.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Fr Iain must be very prayerful! St John of the Cross - not light reading. 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nunsense]

Fr Iain must be very prayerful! St John of the Cross - not light reading. 

 

 

Tthat's why I suggest people start with the Canticle or Living Flame. The Flame is very light!

 

I think this is my favorite verse from it simply because 'thou art no longer oppressive'.

Since thou art no longer oppressive, perfect me now if it be thy will,

Edited August 8, 2015 by nunsense

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'd have to read the commentary cause I have my own understanding of what I think it means but it's probably something else... Lol. I'm actually really liking the poems. 

[Nunsense]

This has the text plus St John's commentary on the poem, translated by K Kavanagh - very well respected (another great translator of John and Teresa is A Peers).

The Living Flame Of Love by St. John of the Cross Translation by: Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD, Rev. Ed. Copyright 1991 ICS Publications. Permission is hereby granted for any non-commercial use, if this copyright notice is included. 

http://www.basilica.org/pages/ebooks/St. John of the Cross-The Living Flame of Love.pdf

 

For those who don't know the poem, this is it:

 

Stanzas the Soul Recites in Intimate Union With God.

1. O living flame of love
that tenderly wounds my soul in its deepest center! Since
now you are not oppressive,
now consummate!  if it be your will:
tear through the veil of this sweet encounter!

2. O sweet cautery,
O delightful wound!
O gentle hand! O delicate touch
that tastes of eternal life
and pays every debt!
In killing you changed death to life.

3. O lamps of fire!
in whose splendors
the deep caverns of feeling,
once obscure and blind,
now give forth, so rarely, so exquisitely,
both warmth and light to their Beloved.

4. How gently and lovingly
you wake in my heart,
where in secret you dwell alone;
and in your sweet breathing,
filled with good and glory,
how tenderly you swell my heart with love.

Edited August 8, 2015 by nunsense

[MarysLittleFlower]

I just read it too, its beautiful I notice it talks about a flame. Some Saints have spoken of God's love as a consuming fire and of this somehow wounding them. Seems relevant to the poem though I'd have to read what St John meant. Also it talks about this 'wound of love', as being in the very center. It is no longer only emotional: it is something between God and the soul, in the centre, where no one else can come but God 

[Nunsense]

I just read it too, its beautiful I notice it talks about a flame. Some Saints have spoken of God's love as a consuming fire and of this somehow wounding them. Seems relevant to the poem though I'd have to read what St John meant. Also it talks about this 'wound of love', as being in the very center. It is no longer only emotional: it is something between God and the soul, in the centre, where no one else can come but God 

When I first started reading St John (Canticle and Flame), I would start to cry from the beauty of the words (and how deeply they touched me), and then I would have to stop and reflect on them before I could read on. It was lectio divina carried to extreme! LOL

[MarysLittleFlower]

They are certainly very beautiful there are verses in the Canticle i have memorized from reading them over and over. 

[Nunsense]

They are certainly very beautiful there are verses in the Canticle i have memorized from reading them over and over. 

I see the Canticle as the yearning and the Flame as the fulfillment. Mm yummy. Good stuff.  

[marigold]

‌@Gabriela