Purgatory

[ironmonk]

The following verses describe what the Catholic Church calls "Purgatory"


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[b]Isaiah 6:5 [/b]
Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
[b]6 [/b]Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.
[b]7 [/b]He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."


Sins are purged so he may enter Heaven. If sins are purged, then he will be saved.





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[b]Matt 12:32 [/b]
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.


How can someone be in Hell, and then be forgiven??? The age to come people can be forgiven, it can't be Heaven because there is no need for forgiveness because in Heaven there will not be sin... it can't be Hell because once your in Hell, it's for eternity.



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[b]Rev 20:13 [/b]
The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
[b]14 [/b]Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
[b]15 [/b]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.


Death and Hades (not the pool of fire) gave up their dead and they were judged according to their deeds.... THEN Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire (HELL as we know it)

Death and Hades is not Hell, and is not Heaven... then what could it be??? The Catholic Church calls it Purgatory.



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[b]1 John 5:16 [/b]
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

[b]Rev 21:27 [/b]
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins.



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[b]1 Cor 3:15 [/b]
But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.


How can we be saved from Hell, because Hell is eternal? This being saved as through fire can only be Purgatory, where our lesser sins will be purged from us.



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[b]Luke 12:59 [/b]
I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
We will pay for all our sins in one way or another (Purgatory). All our sins must be paid for.



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[b]2 Macc 12:43 [/b]
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
[b]44 [/b]for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
[b]45 [/b]
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
[b]46 [/b]Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

If we make it to Heaven, we don't need atonement. If we go to Hell, there is no atonement.... There must be Purgatory


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[b]1 Peter 1:6[/b]
In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials,
[b]7[/b] so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.



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[b]Job 1:5[/b]
And when each feast had run its course, Job would send for them and sanctify them, rising early and offering holocausts for every one of them. For Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned and blasphemed God in their hearts." This Job did habitually.



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[b]Purgatory from the Catechism, The Official Teaching of the Catholic Church: [/b]


[b]III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory[/b]


[b]1030 [/b]All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


[b]1031 [/b]The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608


[b]1032 [/b]This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611


607: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608: St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609: 2 Macc 12:46.
611: St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.








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God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary
iron monk

[Winchester]

Forget a shot over the bow, let's hit below the water line!

[ironmonk]

OH... I forgot to add...

Purgatory is not a doctrine that the Catholic Church came up with.

The doctrine actually came about hundreds of years before Christ came. All the Jews believe in it.

The Catholic Church only gave it a name.

Look up "Rash Hoshanna" and "Mourner's [url="http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#Kaddish"]Kaddish[/url]" from a couple of different jewish sites. (http://www.jewfaq.org, [url="http://shamash.org/trb/judaism.html"]http://shamash.org/trb/judaism.html[/url] )


... The Catholic Faith... the second part of the I AM faith.... the Jewish being the first part.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[MC Just]

[color=red]edited by Cmom, that was an uncalled for generalization[/color]

Edited June 16, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 15 2004, 07:33 PM'] Truth like this goes through one ear and out the other on Protestants. [/quote]
That's a pretty sweeping generalization...

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 15 2004, 07:33 PM'] Truth like this goes through one ear and out the other on Protestants. [/quote]
i hate to be "that guy" but its generalizations of this sort on another board i've been frequenting that make it such an uncharitable place.

so, i usually try to refrain.....

just some constructive criticism bro

pax christi,
phatcatholic

ps: "all catholics are brainwashed"

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 15 2004, 01:34 PM'] The following verses describe what the Catholic Church calls "Purgatory" [/quote]
ur goin in the reference section playa

[ironmonk]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jun 15 2004, 10:51 PM']That's a pretty sweeping generalization...[/quote]
A generalization is something that fits for most people of any certain group.

It is a true statement.

The evidence is overwhelming... any church that does not teach about purgatory cannot possibly be the Church established by Christ.

Most drop this topic and move on to the next... then when they can't prove the Church wrong on that point, instead of changing their mind when they cannot rebut, they change the topic.

Though this is a generalization, it is a true one. This is what happens... if they didn't change the topic, they would become Catholic... and with all the anti-Catholicism in America and the rest of the world, it's easier for them to change the topic instead of the Catholic Church be right about something.

Notice on this board how every anti-Catholic with overwhelming evidence against their attack on the Church, simply changes the subject... and never says that the Catholic Church is right.

Now, there are and have been some non-Catholics that took a while, but they came with a love for truth and now they are Catholic or soon will be. Of course the anti-Catholics consider this brainwashing... if the Catholic Church sounds right on something, it must be brainwashing. I'm still trying to figure out how the Church washed my brain when all I had was the bible until I was 18. - we all know this happens while we sleep.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

you'd be surprised (well, then again, maybe u wouldn't be) by how much i literally have to FIGHT in order to keep a thread on topic over at bruce's home-turf

[Philippe]

hmm question... if u had confession right before you died (on your death bed) so ud be totally cleansed of all your sins... would u have to go to purgatory ?

[crusader1234]

Well, you'd still have to pay for your sins apparently, unless you spent your whole life feeding the homeless

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='lifeteener' date='Jun 16 2004, 03:43 AM'] hmm question... if u had confession right before you died (on your death bed) so ud be totally cleansed of all your sins... would u have to go to purgatory ? [/quote]
it depends....

absolution resolves the effect of sin on your spirit

penance resolves the effect of sin on the Body of Christ.

if, before ur deathbed confession, you had adquately atoned for the suffering your sin caused the body, then no purging is necessary. the absolution made ur spirit clean. heaven is urs.

but, if you had not responded to the grace of God which prompts us towards acts of charity (which in turn counteract the effects of sin on the Body), then some time in purgatory would be necessary, even though ur sins were forgiven.

if my theology here is incorrect, someone let me know.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Philippe]

well id be extatic to make it to purgatory because then at least i know im going to Heaven for SURE ... Lord have Mercy i dont want to go to hell

[Bruce S]

Rather that impose upon your "Purgatory Party" and mutual self support group hug on the joys of post death suffering.

I want to save you all a lot of worry, no one has to EVER go to purgatory for more than a week, come saturday after death, your soul will be sprung and off to heaven you go.

And this won't break, be lost, and you can't forget to wear it.

See - I solved your problem.

PAX!!

---- >> [url="http://tattoopgh.com/zimages/scapular3_01.jpg"]http://tattoopgh.com/zimages/scapular3_01.jpg[/url]

[ironmonk]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 16 2004, 05:48 AM'] Well, you'd still have to pay for your sins apparently, unless you spent your whole life feeding the homeless [/quote]
I'm sorry, but that is incorrect.

Once a sin is forgiven, provided that the sinner was truly sorry, there would be no time in/with purgatory.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what a bad confession would cause someone; depending on what the sin was, it could put one's soul in grave danger.

Just everyone make sure you are sincere in wanting to turn from your sins when at confession and you'll have nothing to worry about.

God Bless!
ironmonk

[Guest JeffCR07]

Honestly, the teachings of purgatory arnt really that hard. The visage of God cannot allow for impurity in his presence, but if I have venial sin on my soul when I die, what happens then? I don't go to hell, so then what?

Its simple: the sin is removed from our soul and we enter heaven

So what is purgatory? It is the condition of the soul when it is being cleansed of any sins that remain.

Besides that, the Church doesn't officially teach anything much more.

[Bruce S]

the erroneous MAN MADE doctrine of purgatory, NEGATES everything that Christ and Paul taught.

The "good theif" was a massive sinner, one that was being executed for his life of crime.

But the GT, was in heaven, THAT DAY, because he believed in Christ.

That is the prime example, of the mistaken doctrine, one that was used by the Catholic Church to extract massive wealth from bereaved and grieving relatives.

[Guest JeffCR07]

The Good Thief doesn't contradict Purgatory at all. You only go through a purification if purification is necessary (ie sin is [i]still on your soul[/i]) when you die. Christ forgave the Good Thief, and I kind of doubt that he sinned in between the moment Christ forgave him and when he died, thus, no purgatory for him.

Also on the GT: This story is used erroneously to show that faith and works don't "come hand in hand" as the Church teaches they must. I would like to point out that you can see the faith and works of the GT remarkably intertwined, due to the fact that he was defending Christ from the criticism of the other theif (defending the name of our lord = deed) when he made his profession of faith in Christ (faith = ...well...faith).

Personally, I would argue that this deed would serve as a penance and that the thief spent no time in purgatory (my own personal belief)

- Your Brother in Christ

[Guest JeffCR07]

also, I would like to add a little something to phatcatholic's post.

Your theology is not "incorrect" but a note should be made:

If you die before doing your penance, but you die with the [i]intent[/i] to do it as soon as possible (ie, you are shot dead as you step foot out of the confessional, and you were about to kneel in a pew and do your penance) then there is no blemish on your soul, and you are clean before both the eyes of God and the Body of Christ, and no cleaning of the soul is required

[ICTHUS]

[b][Devil's Advocate][/b]

[quote][b]Isaiah 6:5 [/b]
Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
[b]6 [/b]Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.
[b]7 [/b]He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."

Sins are purged so he may enter Heaven. If sins are purged, then he will be saved.[/quote]
(Me) Jesus' blood purges our sins when we are justified, and no stain of them remains. You are mis-exegeting this verse. As the famous hymn goes, so does the way in which Christ effects our salvation. Purgatory is an unbiblical myth.

"My sin! O, the thought of this glorious thing!
My sin, [b]not in part[/b], [i]but the whole[/i]!
Is nailed to the Cross, and I bear it no more!
He hath shed His own blood for my soul!"

[quote][b]Matt 12:32 [/b]
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

How can someone be in Hell, and then be forgiven??? The age to come people can be forgiven, it can't be Heaven because there is no need for forgiveness because in Heaven there will not be sin... it can't be Hell because once your in Hell, it's for eternity. [/quote]

(Me) You are clearly pulling a trick that many Roman Catholics like to do with Scripture - [b]eis[/b]egesis - reading a doctrine into the text that simply isn't there. Christ is emphasizing that they who blaspheme against the Spirit will never be forgiven, not that 'some sins are forgiven now, some later'. Your conclusion is absurd.

[quote][b]Rev 20:13 [/b]
The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
[b]14 [/b]Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
[b]15 [/b]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.


Death and Hades (not the pool of fire) gave up their dead and they were judged according to their deeds.... THEN Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire (HELL as we know it)

Death and Hades is not Hell, and is not Heaven... then what could it be??? The Catholic Church calls it Purgatory.[/quote]

(Me) Wrong again. One need only look at the Greek to see that, where the word is rendered "Death" the Greek word is "thanatos", and Hades is a Greek word in itself - in fact, the place where the unrighteous dead went in Greek mythology! (The righteous being destined, of course, for the Elaysian fields). Hades was not a place of purificaiton, but rather, one of [b]everlasting punishment![/b]

So, the passage reads: "And the sea gave up the dead (nekros) that were in it, and death (Gk. Thanatos) and Hell (Gk. Hades)

"So the sea gave up the dead (nekros), and death (thanatos) and Hades (Greek word usually rendered "Hell") gave up their dead, and they were judged according to their deeds"

The basis for purgatory from this verse is utterly untenable, since the word for "Death" implies a state of being (thanatos) and the word "Hades" - is basically a synonym in the Greek language for the Christian concept of Hell.

A more sane interpretation of this verse might be "And the sea gave up its dead, and the land (those who had died and were buried in the Earth) gave up their dead, and Hell gave up its dead"

[quote][b]1 John 5:16 [/b]
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. [/quote]

Augustine says that this sin is 'to forsake, even unto death, the faith which worketh by love' ([i]De Correpcione et Gratia[/i], XXXV). The sin unto death is not to wank off, nor to eat meat on Fridays, nor to use birth control - it is final, obstinate rejection of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Concluding that there are distinctions between sins on this basis is absurd, especially when St. James says:

James 2:1-13 KJV

[color=blue]My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 [b]For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[/b]11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.[/color]

[quote][b]Rev 21:27 [/b]
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins. [/quote]

I dealt with the Isaiah passage and the 1 John passage above. It is true that nothing unclean can enter Heaven - that's why GOD DOESN'T PERMIT UNREGENERATES INTO HIS KINGDOM!!! - because they are still dead in their filth and sin!!

[quote][b]1 Cor 3:15 [/b]
But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

How can we be saved from Hell, because Hell is eternal? This being saved as through fire can only be Purgatory, where our lesser sins will be purged from us. [/quote]

Roman Catholics scream 'context' at Protestants who fail to use it, but they omit it when it suits them! How convenient! Let's examine the context, shall we?

[color=blue]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 [b]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.[/b]14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.[/color]

So clearly, the fire will try man's WORKS, not the person themselves - the person will be saved, even at the judgement where honour is awarded according to our works, but only through having his works burnt up through fire. This verse does not teach purgatory.

[quote][b]Luke 12:59 [/b]
I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."

We will pay for all our sins in one way or another (Purgatory). All our sins must be paid for. [/quote]

Context, my good man!

[color=blue]He said to the crowd: When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does.
55 And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is.
56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
57 Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?
58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.
59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[/color]

Christ is speaking of the end times here, and he's talking about the magistrate throwing you into prison if you aren't reconciled with your adversary! This isn't speaking of any sort of afterlife concept at all - the reference to paying every last penny is just that - you won't get out till you've paid off the debt you owe to your adversary for whatever claim you had against him! Using this verse to support Purgatory is insane...


[quote][b]2 Macc 12:43 [/b]
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
[b]44 [/b]for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
[b]45 [/b]
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
[b]46 [/b]Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

If we make it to Heaven, we don't need atonement. If we go to Hell, there is no atonement.... There must be Purgatory  [/quote]

Three points here:

1. This work is apocryphal, and was not officially finalised as part of the canon, at an Ecumenical Council (Hippo, Rome, and Carthage III and IV were not ecumenical councils) until Trent.

2. It is not accepted as Scripture by orthodox Jews, who never accepted the books as Scripture

3. Christ's blood, not money or good works, atones for sins, for it is written "22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." (Hebrews 9:22)

[quote][b]1 Peter 1:6[/b]
  In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials,
[b]7[/b] so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. [/quote] Yes, we are tested by fire, but we are tested by fire for our sanctification here on Earth! It is completed in glorification, however.

[quote][b]Job 1:5[/b]
And when each feast had run its course, Job would send for them and sanctify them, rising early and offering holocausts for every one of them. For Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned and blasphemed God in their hearts." This Job did habitually. [/quote] Yes - they were purified by those sacrifices, however, I don't see how this purgation need continue after Death.

[quote][b]1032 [/b]This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:[/quote] Apocryphal

[quote]God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary
iron monk[/quote] May the grace of Christ purify you from all Roman error,
Ryan