is the trinity illogical?

[little2add]

Three uses. Three functions. Getting really dangerously close to modalism, IMO. Any time we simplify too much as regards the Trinity, we tend to fall into heresy.

 Crying  Heresy  seems a little rash for a casual  discussion about  the logic of the Trinity.    

 

 

[StMichael]

Three uses. Three functions. Getting really dangerously close to modalism, IMO. Any time we simplify too much as regards the Trinity, we tend to fall into heresy.

Last thing I would ever want. My hope, as well as other religious teachers, was to get a closer understanding of the Holy Trinity. Do you believe I fell into heresy with this loose analogy?

[Nihil Obstat]

 

Last thing I would ever want. My hope, as well as other religious teachers, was to get a closer understanding of the Holy Trinity. Do you believe I fell into heresy with this loose analogy?

Yeah, I think that analogy would be characterized as Sabellian.

[Peace]

Heretics! All of you.

[Didacus]

Heretics! All of you.

 

Edited September 2, 2015 by Didacus
I wanted to edit my post

[reyb]

Heretics! All of you.

Heresy, Heresy, Heresy...man landed on the moon....NASA’s New Horizons was already in the vicinity of planet Pluto, and still you are shouting ‘Heretics....’

--------------------------------

Who invented that God is triune? (Read this... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinus_(Gnostic)).

 

In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases (hidden spiritual realities) came from Plato through the teachings of Valentinus,^[9] who is quoted as teaching that God is three hypostases and three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

 

"Now with the heresy of the Ariomaniacs, which has corrupted the Church of God... These then teach three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermesand Plato." ^[10]

Since Valentinus had used the term hypostases, his name came up in the Arian disputes in the fourth century. Marcellus of Ancyra, who was a staunch opponent of Arianism but also denounced the belief in God existing in three hypostases as heretical (and was later condemned for his views)^{[dubious – discuss][citation needed]}, attacked his opponents (On the Holy Church, 9) by linking them to Valentinus:

"Valentinus, the leader of a sect, was the first to devise the notion of three subsistent entities (hypostases), in a work that he entitled On the Three Natures. For, he devised the notion of three subsistent entities and three persons — father, son, and holy spirit."^[11]

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

True witnesses never teach that God is a trinity. Christ is the mystery of God and not the Trinity. Seek the truth from God himself and you will realize why Apostle Paul said ‘

....yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.  (1 Cor 8:6).

Edited September 2, 2015 by reyb

[Peace]

 

Heresy, Heresy, Heresy...man landed on the moon....NASA’s New Horizons was already in the vicinity of planet Pluto, and still you are shouting ‘Heretics....’

--------------------------------

Who invented that God is triune? (Read this... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinus_(Gnostic)).

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

True witnesses never teach that God is a trinity. Christ is the mystery of God and not the Trinity. Seek the truth from God himself and you will realize why Apostle Paul said ‘

....yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.  (1 Cor 8:6).

Is that what the Metatron told you when you left your body and then watched it flame like a burning bush?

[Dr. Alberto Rivera]

The GODHEAD makes complete sense... GOD is infinite... All powerful. In this realm of infinite it is very possible for GOD whom is one to separate Himself into three co-eternal persons. GOD is love in order for HIM  to love He needs some one to love... Jesus Talks about this And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: “The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting.... When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him.” Proverbs 8:22“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” John 1:1, 2-30

 

. “By Him were all things created, ... whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him.” Colossians 1:16 In referring to Jesus Christ.

And the Holy Spirit which is also God represents Jesus Christ on earth.

[reyb]

Is that what the Metatron told you when you left your body and then watched it flame like a burning bush?

Are you asking me if the Metatron told me that Christ is the mystery of God? You are really kidding me.

Apostle Paul said .. ‘.... in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.’ (Col 2:2-4).

Therefore, it is very clear ‘Christ is the mystery of God’. But, where in the scripture that says ‘The Holy Trinity is the mystery of God?’

It seems you do not read your bible more seriously and intensely than that of your Catechism. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by reyb

[Peace]

Are you asking me if the Metatron told me that Christ is the mystery of God? You are really kidding me.

Apostle Paul said .. ‘.... in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.’ (Col 2:2-4).

Therefore, it is very clear ‘Christ is the mystery of God’. But, where in the scripture that says ‘The Holy Trinity is the mystery of God?’

It seems you do not read your bible more seriously and intensely than that of your Catechism. 

Ouch. That really hurts reyb. Especially considering how much I and other people on this forum value your opinion.

Since you have quoted Colossians in support of your nonsense - how do you know that Paul wrote Colossians? How do you know that a person named Paul existed, and how do you know that Colossians is true and not just a nice fictional story that Paul decided to create one day?

Is that something that the Metatron told you during your self-professed out-of-body experience when you saw Jesus and saw your body on fire like a burning bush? Did the Metatron introduce you to Paul and provide you with an original draft of his letter to inspect?

Edited September 4, 2015 by Peace

[Laudate_Dominum]

From my point of view logic is illogical!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqSlaMME-Mk

[dairygirl4u2c]

so far all i see is people posting theories of logical trinity, only to get their ideas smacked down as heresy. others say it's beyond our understanding or a mystery. it seems that is just another way of saying 'it might sound illogical but..'. i could concede that maybe there's something we dont understand, maybe other dimensions beyond our grasp or something. but as it sits, if we're concluding what everyone here is, it seems we should at least be able to admit the trinity SOUNDS illogical. 

[Peace]

so far all i see is people posting theories of logical trinity, only to get their ideas smacked down as heresy. others say it's beyond our understanding or a mystery. it seems that is just another way of saying 'it might sound illogical but..'. i could concede that maybe there's something we dont understand, maybe other dimensions beyond our grasp or something. but as it sits, if we're concluding what everyone here is, it seems we should at least be able to admit the trinity SOUNDS illogical. 

Before this topic goes any further - it might help if you set forth a proposed definition of "logical" and "illogical".

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the Christian concept of the Trinity is objectively true. Can something that is objectively true be illogical - in your opinion?

I am not sure if I would go as far as to call the Trinity entirely illogical - there have been plenty of things in history that we have not understood, but then at a later time came to understand. The fact that we did not understand it in the past does not mean that it was illogical then.

Every being that we know of in the universe consists of one person.  The Trinity asserts that there is a being that consists of three persons. There is no being like that in the known universe - so it is difficult for us to fathom, certainly. Perhaps one day God will show us how that works.

Thread hijack - Question for people that know (a.k.a. not reyb): Technically, I think that the Catholic Church teaches that God is not a "being" in any sense at all, but rather "the sheer act of to be itself" as Fr. Barron puts it:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column/why-i-love-my-invisible-friend-2970/

Is Fr. Barron using the word "being" there in the same sense that people sometimes say "One being" when attempting to explain the Trinity?

[reyb]

Ouch. That really hurts reyb. Especially considering how much I and other people on this forum value your opinion.

Since you have quoted Colossians in support of your nonsense - how do you know that Paul wrote Colossians? How do you know that a person named Paul existed, and how do you know that Colossians is true and not just a nice fictional story that Paul decided to create one day?

Is that something that the Metatron told you during your self-professed out-of-body experience when you saw Jesus and saw your body on fire like a burning bush? Did the Metatron introduce you to Paul and provide you with an original draft of his letter to inspect?

 

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the Christian concept of the Trinity is objectively true. Can something that is objectively true be illogical - in your opinion?

 

 

I quoted Apostle Paul’s Colossians to show you that Christ is the mystery of God. And I did it since I know that you accepted Colossian as a sacred letter.  It is written so to speak and thus, I do not need any further explanation. But it seems, it is not enough for you.

 Okay, let us suppose that a man named Paul did not really exist in this world. But one thing you can never dismissed, and that is, this kind of letter exists.  There is also a possibility that it was intentionally or unintentionally altered, modified, shortened or expanded to suit someone else belief but still, its message is enough confirmation on my part that the writer of this letter is a true witness of God. Why? Because, what I saw was confirmed in it. This is the reason why said ‘only a witness can understand another witness’ especially when we will discuss about the real Jesus Christ.  As I have said (and many times in this forum), no one in this world can make him known since God alone can reveal his Christ.

 Metatron, man of lawlessness, burning bush, Jonah and his big fish…etc are all different presentation made by different witnesses to just one thing – the Coming of the Son of Man. Even the writer of Luke said the same thing in the beginning of his story. (Luke 1:1-4).

 Luke 1:1-4
 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed. 
NKJV

 

 Regarding Holy Trinity: You started in a wrong premise since you already accepted and considered that the Trinity is objectively true. Of course, if Trinity is objectively true then it must be logical since logic is just a tool in analyzing  arguments whether it is true or false.

 But, if you really wanted to know if this trinity is objectively true then, you must do it the other way around. You must try to analyze all arguments concerning this Trinity, and if you see many self-contradictory proposition then something is really wrong. Why? Because, how can it be logical if there are many inconsistencies?

 Trinity is an erroneous proposition on the nature of God. It is a lie. It is a deception since it will not teach you to seek the real Jesus Christ. I already explained it in this forum.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2015 by reyb

[Nunsense]

 

 

I quoted Apostle Paul’s Colossians to show you that Christ is the mystery of God. And I did it since I know that you accepted Colossian as a sacred letter.  It is written so to speak and thus, I do not need any further explanation. But it seems, it is not enough for you.

 Okay, let us suppose that a man named Paul did not really exist in this world. But one thing you can never dismissed, and that is, this kind of letter exists.  There is also a possibility that it was intentionally or unintentionally altered, modified, shortened or expanded to suit someone else belief but still, its message is enough confirmation on my part that the writer of this letter is a true witness of God. Why? Because, what I saw was confirmed in it. This is the reason why said ‘only a witness can understand another witness’ especially when we will discuss about the real Jesus Christ.  As I have said (and many times in this forum), no one in this world can make him known since God alone can reveal his Christ.

 Metatron, man of lawlessness, burning bush, Jonah and his big fish…etc are all different presentation made by different witnesses to just one thing – the Coming of the Son of Man. Even the writer of Luke said the same thing in the beginning of his story. (Luke 1:1-4).

 Luke 1:1-4
 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed. 
NKJV

 

 Regarding Holy Trinity: You started in a wrong premise since you already accepted and considered that the Trinity is objectively true. Of course, if Trinity is objectively true then it must be logical since logic is just a tool in analyzing  arguments whether it is true or false.

 But, if you really wanted to know if this trinity is objectively true then, you must do it the other way around. You must try to analyze all arguments concerning this Trinity, and if you see many self-contradictory proposition then something is really wrong. Why? Because, how can it be logical if there are many inconsistencies?

 Trinity is an erroneous proposition on the nature of God. It is a lie. It is a deception since it will not teach you to seek the real Jesus Christ. I already explained it in this forum.

 

 

 

 

So since you appear to be very satisfied with your own religion, why come to a Catholic forum to debate an issue that Catholics are never going to change because the Trinity is an integral part of our faith and beliefs and doctrine? You just like debating? Or perhaps are you a little in doubt of the things that you have been posting and are hoping that someone here can convince you to believe in the Trinity? It really is unrealistic to think that you are going to find anyone converting to your point of view here. Just saying.

[Peace]

I quoted Apostle Paul’s Colossians to show you that Christ is the mystery of God. And I did it since I know that you accepted Colossian as a sacred letter.  It is written so to speak and thus, I do not need any further explanation. But it seems, it is not enough for you.

No. You cannot use Paul while rejecting all other books of the Bible. If you reject the authority of the Catholic Church to declare what is Sacred Scripture - then you must provide an independent basis for relying on the letters of Paul. You cannot selectively appeal to the Church authority.

And it appears that your only basis for using the letters of Paul is that "you saw the Real Jesus when you left your body and proceeded to watch it on flame like a burning bush." That is ridiculous. And there is no reason why I or anyone else here should accept it. Please stop wasting your time and our time.

 Okay, let us suppose that a man named Paul did not really exist in this world. But one thing you can never dismissed, and that is, this kind of letter exists.  There is also a possibility that it was intentionally or unintentionally altered, modified, shortened or expanded to suit someone else belief but still, its message is enough confirmation on my part that the writer of this letter is a true witness of God. Why? Because, what I saw was confirmed in it. This is the reason why said ‘only a witness can understand another witness’ especially when we will discuss about the real Jesus Christ.  As I have said (and many times in this forum), no one in this world can make him known since God alone can reveal his Christ.

OK - so you can offer us no proof for your beleifs other than the alleged vision that you saw. You expect us to apply logic to determine whether our own beliefs are true yet you appear to be perfectly fine with basing your own beliefs on a vision.

How do you know that this vision of yours was not a drug-induced hallucination or the result of a mental-illness? How do you know that this vision of yours was not a trick that Satan played on you? Have you gone to see a psychiatrist and taken tests to determine whether you have a mental-illness?

Again - you are wasting your time and you are wasting the time of everyone on this forum.

 Metatron, man of lawlessness, burning bush, Jonah and his big fish…etc are all different presentation made by different witnesses to just one thing – the Coming of the Son of Man. Even the writer of Luke said the same thing in the beginning of his story. (Luke 1:1-4).

 Luke 1:1-4
 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed. 
NKJV

Your interpretation of these verses is ridiculous. It does not say anything about a Metatron, man of lawlessness, Jonah and his Big Fish, the Coming of the Son of Man.  The only proof that you can offer for your interpretation is that "you saw the Real Jesus when you left your body and proceeded to watch it on flame like a burning bush". It would be ridiculous for anyone here to accept that so again - you are wasting your time and your are wasting our time. Prove to us that what you saw was not a drug-induced hallucination and then perhaps we can talk.

 But, if you really wanted to know if this trinity is objectively true then, you must do it the other way around. You must try to analyze all arguments concerning this Trinity, and if you see many self-contradictory proposition then something is really wrong. Why? Because, how can it be logical if there are many inconsistencies?

That's nice. Except that the only justification or proof that you have for anything that you write is a hallucination. There is much more logical evidence to support the assertion that what the Catholic Church teaches is true than there is for anything that you have written here on the forum.

Trinity is an erroneous proposition on the nature of God. It is a lie. It is a deception since it will not teach you to seek the real Jesus Christ. I already explained it in this forum.

It may be the truth or it may be a lie. But there is much more evidence for me to beleive that what the Catholic Churche teaches is true than there is for me to beleive the delusional hallucinations of a person on the internet.

Everyone on this forum knows very well that you do not accept our beliefs and your reasons for not beleiving them. You have made your arugments and you have no futher proof to offer except that you "saw a vision of the real Jesus". Again - there is no reason for anyone here to accept that. And not a single person on this forum has found you persuasive in the many years that you have been here. The rejection of your arguments has not and will not change, yet you keep repeating the same things over and over and over and over. That is a sign of mental instability. Please see a doctor.

And you are doing nothing here other than constantly attacking Catholics. That makes you a troll.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Peace

[reyb]

So since you appear to be very satisfied with your own religion, why come to a Catholic forum to debate an issue that Catholics are never going to change because the Trinity is an integral part of our faith and beliefs and doctrine? You just like debating? Or perhaps are you a little in doubt of the things that you have been posting and are hoping that someone here can convince you to believe in the Trinity? It really is unrealistic to think that you are going to find anyone converting to your point of view here. Just saying.

No. You cannot use Paul while rejecting all other books of the Bible. If you reject the authority of the Catholic Church to declare what is Sacred Scripture - then you must provide an independent basis for relying on the letters of Paul. You cannot selectively appeal to the Church authority.

And it appears that your only basis for using the letters of Paul is that "you saw the Real Jesus when you left your body and proceeded to watch it on flame like a burning bush." That is ridiculous. And there is no reason why I or anyone else here should accept it. Please stop wasting your time and our time.

OK - so you can offer us no proof for your beleifs other than the alleged vision that you saw. You expect us to apply logic to determine whether our own beliefs are true yet you appear to be perfectly fine with basing your own beliefs on a vision.

How do you know that this vision of yours was not a drug-induced hallucination or the result of a mental-illness? How do you know that this vision of yours was not a trick that Satan played on you? Have you gone to see a psychiatrist and taken tests to determine whether you have a mental-illness?

Again - you are wasting your time and you are wasting the time of everyone on this forum.

Your interpretation of these verses is ridiculous. It does not say anything about a Metatron, man of lawlessness, Jonah and his Big Fish, the Coming of the Son of Man.  The only proof that you can offer for your interpretation is that "you saw the Real Jesus when you left your body and proceeded to watch it on flame like a burning bush". It would be ridiculous for anyone here to accept that so again - you are wasting your time and your are wasting our time. Prove to us that what you saw was not a drug-induced hallucination and then perhaps we can talk.

That's nice. Except that the only justification or proof that you have for anything that you write is a hallucination. There is much more logical evidence to support the assertion that what the Catholic Church teaches is true than there is for anything that you have written here on the forum.

It may be the truth or it may be a lie. But there is much more evidence for me to beleive that what the Catholic Churche teaches is true than there is for me to beleive the delusional hallucinations of a person on the internet.

Everyone on this forum knows very well that you do not accept our beliefs and your reasons for not beleiving them. You have made your arugments and you have no futher proof to offer except that you "saw a vision of the real Jesus". Again - there is no reason for anyone here to accept that. And not a single person on this forum has found you persuasive in the many years that you have been here. The rejection of your arguments has not and will not change, yet you keep repeating the same things over and over and over and over. That is a sign of mental instability. Please see a doctor.

And you are doing nothing here other than constantly attacking Catholics. That makes you a troll.

What can I do?

Actually, it is really very tempting on my part to ignore everything and for almost 18 years, I always complaining and saying, why I need to do something which will make them hated me? I know, I will be insulted, reprimanded, tagged as evil gossiper, an enemy of many honest, moralist and religious people, a self-centered conceited nonsense creature....etc. But still, I am doing it because, I love you as I love myself although this kind of love is not really innate from me.

I am not lying. I truly believe in your good intention in honouring and serving God but, unfortunately you are not aware that you are doing the opposite, and thus, you must be informed. I do not come here to put a fight as if I am trying to prove anything for myself or to convert anyone just like other preachers are doing. Actually I am not even a preacher in any religious organization. But, you must realize that you are in error so that you will seek the real Jesus Christ. As long as you have this day, which we called ‘Today’, I truly believe that you can still see him. But, if you close your eyes before this ‘Today’ ends then, we can do nothing at all. The beginning and the end meets and it will grind you forever.  

I am very sure. If you are in my place and I am in yours. You will definitely do for me what I am doing now because, you loved me too as you loved yourself.   

[Peace]

 

 

What can I do?

Actually, it is really very tempting on my part to ignore everything and for almost 18 years, I always complaining and saying, why I need to do something which will make them hated me? I know, I will be insulted, reprimanded, tagged as evil gossiper, an enemy of many honest, moralist and religious people, a self-centered conceited nonsense creature....etc. But still, I am doing it because, I love you as I love myself although this kind of love is not really innate from me.

I am not lying. I truly believe in your good intention in honouring and serving God but, unfortunately you are not aware that you are doing the opposite, and thus, you must be informed. I do not come here to put a fight as if I am trying to prove anything for myself or to convert anyone just like other preachers are doing. Actually I am not even a preacher in any religious organization. But, you must realize that you are in error so that you will seek the real Jesus Christ. As long as you have this day, which we called ‘Today’, I truly believe that you can still see him. But, if you close your eyes before this ‘Today’ ends then, we can do nothing at all. The beginning and the end meets and it will grind you forever.  

I am very sure. If you are in my place and I am in yours. You will definitely do for me what I am doing now because, you loved me too as you loved yourself.   

I do see Jesus Christ - at Mass. Nothing that you write here is going to change that belief. So you are wasting your time.

If you are truly concerend about convincing people to "seek the real Jesus" and not the "Historical Jesus" then I suggest that you go about it another way. What you have done here has obviously had absolutely no effect on anyone other than to annoy - so why not try a different approach?

[reyb]

 

 

I do see Jesus Christ - at Mass. Nothing that you write here is going to change that belief. So you are wasting your time.

If you are truly concerend about convincing people to "seek the real Jesus" and not the "Historical Jesus" then I suggest that you go about it another way. What you have done here has obviously had absolutely no effect on anyone other than to annoy - so why not try a different approach?

Okay. It is up to you. I have done my part. 

Edited September 5, 2015 by reyb

[Peace]

And by the insulting and overbearing nature in which you approach other members of this forum - there is no reason for me to believe in your professions of love or that you know Jesus.

You seem to like Paul. Paul writes:

⁴ Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; ⁵ it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ⁶ it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. ⁷ Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

But I do not see any of those things in you.