Contemplating Josephite marriage

[adhoc]

Me and my significant other are about 40. She is infertile. We are contemplating marriage. She does not have a strong drive, usually. And has mentioned to me about living in chastity, i.e. celibacy. I am not sure if she meant temporarily or permanently.  I have a normal drive but am thinking about embracing Josephite marriage. That is marriage without sexual activity. The focus of that marriage would be adopting children and making that the primary focus. I am hoping that I will be granted such a gift if I make a sacrifice and don't have a me-oriented situation.   I found out, from my experiences, that sexual activity is self-absorbed, draining and takes away from some other pursuits.

I've struggled with lust for a very long time so it will be a challenging transition. The duality of man is very apparent here. Spiritually I feel ready, physically I am always behind. I realize some discussion needs to take place. Of course anytime she wants to go back to a "default" relationship, I am  on the same page. It's just that in terms of procreation, there is limited sense in intimacy given her infertility, that only leaves "unity" which seems to be a lesser component.  I think she understands that. 

So if my significant other does embrace the concept of Josephite marriage, I am there to support her and I think it will develop me spiritually as well as strengthen our relationship. She wants to adopt several kids and so do I. 

So I feel like I would benefit from some guidelines. I don't know if we will end up taking the Josephite vows.  That is a possibility, if not now, maybe in several years.

I have carefully read about the matter here, there are lots of valid points made in that thread. Though I am in a different situation in life, I think. 

 

[Gabriela]

Welcome to Phatmass, adhoc!  

First of all, to my knowledge, Josephite marriage is no longer permitted by the Church. This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that entrance into a union (i.e., into a marriage) with no intent of procreating is grounds for a declaration of nullity of the union. That your partner is infertile makes no difference in the matter. @Sponsa-Christi: Can you confirm this? (Sponsa-Christi is a canon lawyer, adhoc.)

Second, "unity" is in no sense a lesser component of the marital act than the "procreative" component. They are equally important.

I would advise that you speak to a priest about this matter.

[adhoc]

Interesting point you make, I think you are right. 

 

[Antonius]

IIRC, Josephite marriages were allowed for seriously pious/religious people who were forced to marry for legal/inheritance purposes.

It will be enough of a challenge for you to get married and truly "will the good of the other" instead of lusting over one another.  Anyway, talking with a good priest about this will be helpful.  40 is also a difficult age to start adopting babies, but you've got the right idea that your love will fall apart if it doesn't reach out to love others.

[Lilllabettt]

Welcome to Phatmass, adhoc!  

First of all, to my knowledge, Josephite marriage is no longer permitted by the Church. This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that entrance into a union (i.e., into a marriage) with no intent of procreating is grounds for a declaration of nullity of the union. That your partner is infertile makes no difference in the matter. @Sponsa-Christi: Can you confirm this? (Sponsa-Christi is a canon lawyer, adhoc.)

Second, "unity" is in no sense a lesser component of the marital act than the "procreative" component. They are equally important.

I would advise that you speak to a priest about this matter.

josephite marriages are not consummated - the marriage is still valid, presuming the lack of consummation does not stem from impotence or some other impediment. Valid, unconsummated. ratum tantum.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[adhoc]

There are no problems with impotence or other impediments, the issue is infertility.

Maybe I am overthinking this and should just stay with status quo. We rarely have intimate encounters anyway, maybe averaging once per month. And maybe that's just fine. She still has a modicum of hope that kids are possible and tries to time these encounters with her supposedly fertile periods, to no avail -- for years now. So theoretically these encounters are procreative. De facto, I don't know, not very.   Everyone is frustrated. I've come to accept things.

I have friends who have truly embraced the Josephite marriage concept and they are not what I would call a success story. They have a "cold war" going on. So I think I am going to reject the paradigm. Since fertility is not a focal point, like it not, I guess that leaves lust and whatever else is left.  I am just being brutally honest.

 

 

[Sponsa-Christi]

Welcome to Phatmass, adhoc!  

First of all, to my knowledge, Josephite marriage is no longer permitted by the Church. This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that entrance into a union (i.e., into a marriage) with no intent of procreating is grounds for a declaration of nullity of the union. That your partner is infertile makes no difference in the matter. @Sponsa-Christi: Can you confirm this? (Sponsa-Christi is a canon lawyer, adhoc.)

Second, "unity" is in no sense a lesser component of the marital act than the "procreative" component. They are equally important.

I would advise that you speak to a priest about this matter.

The short answer is: technically, Josephite marriages ARE still permitted, but this is an extremely rare vocation that would require a great deal of very careful discernment on the part of both parties. 

As a longer explanation: As a  general principle, for a marriage to be valid, both parties need intend to be married as the Church understand marriage. Specifically, both parties need to be capable of consummating the marriage; and both parties need to be aware that marriage ordinarily involves sexual intercourse ordered towards procreation. Also, for a marriage to be valid both parties need to be open and honest about aspects of themselves which directly pertain to marriage---e.g., one  spouse can't have a hidden intention of having a Josephite marriage that they then reveal to the other spouse only after the wedding, etc. 

A lawful marriage is valid and binding regardless of whether or not it is actually consummated (although a valid but unconsummated marriage can be dissolved by the Holy Father as a specially granted favor). So theoretically, a couple could marry--as in, exchange vows at the altar--and then mutually agree to refrain from sexual intercourse out of pious motives.

However, my thought is that there are still a lot of potentially tricky issues vis-a-vis validity, consent, and the nature of one's intentions to be married. (For example...what if after the wedding, one spouse feels that God is indeed calling them to consummate their marriage after all? If the other spouse is dead-set against ever having relations, ever, under any circumstances...one could possibly argue in a marriage tribunal that the resisting spouse never intended to be truly married.)

[adhoc]

I get your point.

Right now our beliefs seem to circle around the idea that intimacy is for procreative use only, she still has a modicum of hope things will work out. She does want to try invitro, which I am against.  We don't believe in NFP however, we both believe that abstinence is the only form of contraception.  She thinks there isn't that much point to engage during her supposedly infertile period.  One part of me agrees, the other doesn't. 

So I don't know what will happen when we adopt, or by some miracle, have kids, or when it becomes 100% clear conception will never happen.  Things are slowly evolving. 

 

[Sponsa-Christi]

There are no problems with impotence or other impediments, the issue is infertility.

Maybe I am overthinking this and should just stay with status quo. We rarely have intimate encounters anyway, maybe averaging once per month. And maybe that's just fine. She still has a modicum of hope that kids are possible and tries to time these encounters with her supposedly fertile periods, to no avail -- for years now. So theoretically these encounters are procreative. De facto, I don't know, not very.   Everyone is frustrated. I've come to accept things.

I have friends who have truly embraced the Josephite marriage concept and they are not what I would call a success story. They have a "cold war" going on. So I think I am going to reject the paradigm. Since fertility is not a focal point, like it not, I guess that leaves lust and whatever else is left.  I am just being brutally honest.

 

 

From what you've written here, it looks like you're perfectly capable of having a normal, valid marriage. (And actually...if you're having "intimate encounters" at all in the first place, you should resolve to stop these until you are married, since having sexual relations outside of marriage is a serious sin.)

For a marriage to be valid, the only thing necessary is that you be physically capable of consummating the marriage, fundamentally willing on at least some level to consummate it, and that you be open to whatever life results from sexual intercourse. "Open to life" means that you're willing to accept whatever children God sends you, if God chooses to send you children---it does NOT mean "actually achieve a pregnancy." So infertility which results from natural causes is absolutely not an impediment to marriage. 

If one of the potential spouses has fertility problems and a low sex drive, it's perfectly fine to get married, and then let intimacy develop at whatever pace you both feel comfortable with. 

I get your point.

Right now our beliefs seem to circle around the idea that intimacy is for procreative use only, she still has a modicum of hope things will work out. She does want to try invitro, which I am against.  We don't believe in NFP however, we both believe that abstinence is the only form of contraception.  She thinks there isn't that much point to engage during her supposedly infertile period.  One part of me agrees, the other doesn't. 

So I don't know what will happen when we adopt, or by some miracle, have kids, or when it becomes 100% clear conception will never happen.  Things are slowly evolving. 

 

The Catholic Church teaches that intimacy has to be OPEN to procreation, not that every act has to result in a pregnancy. Especially if spouses are hoping to get pregnant, it's completely fine to have relations even knowing that conception is unlikely.

Catholics believe that the creation of new life is ultimately in God's hands. If God doesn't send a couple a child, that's a reflection of God's mysterious will, and not necessarily anything the couple did or didn't do. 

Artificial contraception is a problem because it's human beings actively and deliberately trying to stop the possibility of God's creation---whereas NFP is working within God's plan without actively stopping Him. I.e., it's not a sin to have relations at a time of month when the woman is know or thought to be naturally infertile, because your actions are still open to the POSSIBILITY that God will create a new life, even if that possibility is unlikely. Essentially, NFP is using selectively-timed abstinence as a form of "contraception."

I hope that makes sense!

[adhoc]

I don't know what will happen when we adopt, or by some miracle, have kids, or when it becomes 100% clear conception will never happen.  Things are slowly evolving. She did tell me that if we do conceive, she wants no sexual activity during the spacing period between kids. No contraception, no NFP, total abstinence. I certainly support her, she thinks that it should be oriented towards procreation only.   And also no activity of any kind when kids are no longer the focus. Which is probably in about 5 years.

I don't think I would have accepted this worldview in my 20's or 30's.    I am heading towards mid 40's - fast.  Aging seems to accelerate the older you get, weird.

Yeah it makes complete sense.

 

 

[Antigonos]

Speaking purely with my nurse-midwife hat on, as someone who worked in a fertility clinic for a number of years, let me just note that the chances of conception, either spontaneous or with assisted reproductive techniques, drops off drastically for women over 40.  So even if you were interested in trying for a pregnancy via IVF [very probably needing a donor egg], the chances are fairly low.

Adoption, for couples in their 40s, is usually very difficult.  Nowadays, it is not easy even for young, suitable couples as the demand, so to speak, far outstrips demand.  Sometimes the only option is to take an older child, or one with special needs.  In this latter category, the agency placing the child want to be sure the parents won't die before the child is an adult and self-sufficient, so your age goes against you here. 

As someone who was born to a couple in their forties, I can tell you that it is not easy to either be the child of older parents, or to be an older parent oneself.  You just don't have the vigor, stamina, or flexibility of younger people.  Remember that, if 40 now, you would be [most likely] in your mid to later 50s with a teenager to cope with.  Adolescence isn't easy for ANY parent to cope with 

Lastly, I'm deliberately avoiding the issue of the marital relationship itself, since, being Jewish, I have a very different concept of what marriage is meant to be.  But let me just say that companionship is the central issue of living with anyone else.  If you two are running on very different tracks, no matter what the intention, friction is going to result -- and sex, or the lack of it -- is the elephant in the room.  Normal couples, with normal sex lives, experience periods when they aren't "in sync" and it generates tension to a greater or lesser degree.  If one partner in a marriage wants to live a celibate life but the other has normal urges, this is going to be, eventually, a major area of conflict, no matter how good one's intentions are.

 

[adhoc]

Good point

what do you mean here? " being Jewish, I have a very different concept of what marriage is meant to be."

[Antigonos]

Good point

what do you mean here? " being Jewish, I have a very different concept of what marriage is meant to be."

I'm not sure that this is the place to discuss it, but the emphasis on procreation is not stressed as much in Judaism.  One of the benedictions recited as part of the wedding ceremony is that the bride and groom find in each other the same joy that they had in the pristine state of the Garden of Eden.  Sexual pleasure, within the parameters of married life is a gift of God.  So, while procreation is a major aim of marriage, it is not the sole reason for it.

 

Judaism sees no benefit in virginity or the celibate state as such.

[adhoc]

Well I suppose you are right about that to an extent, I see your point

 

[adhoc]

We did talk to a priest. He said that we should come up with a schedule that we are both happy with. 

[katherineH]

Hello adhoc!

I was very interested in this topic a couple of years ago and remembered reading something about Josephite marriages usually occurring among older couples (that have already been married for a while, usually with grown children), and who then choose to forgo sexual intimacy as a sacrifice, i.e. as a form of fasting for the attainment of a higher good.  So the abstinence isn't a "no" to sex per se, but a "yes" to something else (which is, in essence, what chastity is all about).  I think that any kind of decision must include this aspect: what are you trying to achieve through a Josephite marriage? How is this going to contribute to increased holiness among the two of you? What are you fasting for exactly? 

Thanks for sharing! 

K. 

[Ice_nine]

I moved this to open mic because 1) I believe in fascism and 2) As far as I understand the vocation station is for religious vocations, not marriage. The latter can either go here or on RSH if it gets too frisky.

[adhoc]

Thank you. Makes sense.

> what are you trying to achieve through a Josephite marriage?

 

A blessing to successfully adopt kids. We've had so much 'activity' in the last 4 years to be enough for a lifetime and all of it fruitless.  So I don't know what to do - keep doing what we have been doing or try something new. It has not been much more than self-gratification to be brutally honest.  Does anyone really think about higher truths in the world when engaging in such activity.

Maybe the 'Josephite' concept is a stupid idea and a bargain with God. I don't think it's going to work. If I do this, maybe God will do that. My companionship suggested to me we limit the frequency and I have done that, to just once per month. And it has been helpful, I have began to see the world in a different light.  It's an amazing change that happens when you are not engaged in constant intercourse or the dreaded M word. You see the world in a different color. I can only wonder what happens when you begin to live the life full-time. She wants to adopt, I support her. 

I am almost 43, so I don't know if that's old or not. I have one child  from a previous engagement, she has none. 

I think the situation in my case, I still have  drive and I imagine so does she. So when you limit your access to sexuality, you actually invigorate your marriage instead of rapidly burning out.  In my case, and YMMV, the key is to have ongoing desire and not act upon it every single time. A priest said to establish a frequency and gradually lower it as you get older. It all might be a moot point if you hit 50 and turn impotent or something.

I also hope this will help me in my fight with gluttony. Different words, same tune. An almost identical struggle.  

 

Edit: At this point, I let my significant other make this determination, if she ever decides to fully embrace the Josephite marriage paradigm, I will fully support her and this will in no way diminish my feelings for her, only enhance them.  This model works for me, thus far she makes key decisions and it has worked better than the converse. 

 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that these posts are not trolling, but I am seriously concerned for you. 

First of all, if you are a devout enough Catholic that you are contemplating Josephite marriage, why are you having premarital sex at all? If you have been with this woman for four years, why haven't you married?

There is nothing uncommon about still having a sex drive in your 40's. And, if you still have a sex drive in your 40's, it's not likely to suddenly disappear in your 50's. But, if you have a partner with a low to zero sex drive, that has the makings of a recipe for disaster in marriage. Sure, sometimes people find themselves in this situation after being married for awhile and they have to learn to cope, but starting a marriage with this kind of problem isn't a good idea. Marriage is tough enough as it is.

Of course, priests, nuns, consecrated virgins, etc. all take vows of celibacy, but they also don't share a bed (or at least a house or, at minimum, a romantic relationship) with a person to whom they are sexually attracted. Plus, people who have taken a vow of celibacy don't necessarily lose their sex drive--it is not an easy road. I assume that people who have taken a vow of celibacy do their best to stay away from sexual temptation which is not what you're doing.

I also think it is irrational thinking to expect that God will reward you with adoption if you give up having sex. I don't think God's gifts and graces work that way.

Perhaps in addition to a priest, you need a professional marriage counselor. (You don't need to be married to see a marriage counselor.) There might be psychological reasons for your partner's lack of sex drive that can be professionally treated.

Also, does your partner have a good OB/GYN? Do you KNOW she cannot bear children (or is that simply because you have been having sex for four years without getting pregnant)? A lack of sex drive can be a symptom of all kinds of disorders and may well be treatable. There may be hormonal factors at work. Also, many common drugs can cause lack of sex drive.

In any case, your situation is really too complex for any of us here to be of real help, except, of course, to pray for you and your partner, which of course we will do.

Edited September 22, 2015 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

I am also concerned by what seems to be implied in this thread - that pre/extra-marital sexual activity has been regular and consistent for at least several years. This situation should be sorted out before anything else is contemplated. If chastity has not been a priority through several years of being unmarried, then chastity within marriage, whether it be Josephite or not, seems like a bit of a tall order.
By the way, celibacy and chastity are not synonymous. We are all called to chastity, no matter our state in life. We are not all called to celibacy. Chastity for a married couple entails a prohibition of sexual intimacy. For a married couple, chastity can include sexual intimacy.