marriage of non practicing Catholics

[MarysLittleFlower]

I was told that baptized Catholics marrying in a non Catholic ceremony have an invalid marriage. What happens if two non practicing Catholics want to get married in the Church? For example if the parents want it. What happens with them being non practising and going through the course with the priest? If they don't have a conversion and go to Confession they'd be receiving Communion unworthily that day and the Sacrament of Matrimony would be in a state of sin too, - would it be valid? What would the priest even tell them if they meet with him? At the same time if they marry non Catholic it would not even be valid as a natural marriage. What does the Church say in these circumstances? 

If you have a friend in this situation what's the best thing to tell them? I'm happy they don't want a beach wedding or something, at the same time I'd want for them to have a Church wedding with proper preparation.. I wouldn't want for them to marry invalidly of course though. They haven't talked to a priest yet I think cause they're not actually engaged but it sounds like they spoke of a Church wedding for the parents. If they met with a priest what would he likely say? 

[Sponsa-Christi]

Yes, this is true...if one is baptized Catholic, one is Catholic as far as the Church's marriage laws are concerned, full stop. Therefore, if two baptized Catholics marry outside the Church, the marriage is invalid. 

This is why I personally don't believe in a lot of mandatory marriage prep classes, or priests really grilling engaged couples about how well they practice the faith. Marriage, unlike Holy Orders, is a natural human right, and I don't think it's fair to give engaged couples the choice of basically either living in sin or facing the "inquisition." Often, too, a desire to marry validly in the Church can be considered a good first step towards a fuller conversion. 

If a Catholic has fallen away from the faith, but they still want to marry validly within the Church, it is possible to have a wedding outside of Mass---i.e., a wedding where there is no need to worry about who can receive Holy Communion---if there are pastoral reasons which suggest this might be better.

Knowing what to say to a friend in this situation would depend a lot on the particular circumstances and personality of that particular friend. Maybe the best thing you could do would be to point them towards and experienced and understanding priest. 

[Basilisa Marie]

Catholics are bound to follow canonical form when they get married, unless they get an exception to the rules (usually called a dispensation). It doesn't matter if you practice, the only thing that matters is if you were baptized Catholic. They have to be married in a Catholic church, witnessed by a priest or deacon and two others, and use the vows the Church provides (you can't make up your own). 

If you want to marry a Baptist and get the right permissions, you can get married in a baptist church with a baptist minister and it still counts as a valid catholic wedding.  Cool, eh?  If you don't get the permissions, it's automatically invalid, though. 

If two non-practicing Catholics get married in the Catholic church to please their parents and they later decide they want an annulment, the tribunal has to figure out if they really intended all the things the Church says about marriage or did they just intend to make their parents happy. That is, did they intend for it to be lifelong, exclusive, and open to having and raising children? Or did they just fake ("simulate") those promises when they made them? Did the Catholic mom or dad threaten to completely cut the kid off from the family and finances if they didn't get married, and married in the Church? Well that's not freely given consent. 

You can be in a state of mortal sin and still get married validly. A person's holiness has no effect on the validity of any sacrament - we figured that out with the Donatist Heresy.  Now they may not get all the graces from the sacrament right away, if it's a sacramental marriage. 

How well do you know the couple? Sounds like you're getting ahead of yourself if you're not sure if they're even engaged. My sister is a baptized Catholic and doesn't practice, and is living with her unbaptized yet sort of baptist boyfriend. I've reminded her gently, when we were talking about relationships and stuff, that she's supposed to get married in the Church and that when the time came I can totally help her figure out how to make it work (like I said, depending on your diocese's judicial vicar and your personal situation sometimes it's easier to get exceptions to the rules than others).  But she's my sister, and we were already talking about relationships. A diocese is more likely to give you an exception from the rules if you don't practice your catholic faith but your future spouse really practices theirs, or if their dad or uncle is a minister, or some really good reason like that. They won't give you an exception because a beach wedding would be super fun. 

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

"You can be in a state of mortal sin and still get married validly. A person's holiness has no effect on the validity of any sacrament - we figured that out with the Donatist Heresy.  Now they may not get all the graces from the sacrament right away, if it's a sacramental marriage. "

 

Thats what I was trying to figure out, thanks!

Thanks for the replies. Its true they're not engaged so this is more hypothetical. of course that makes sense about being married in the Church. I'm glad if they wouldn't marry just civilly because it wouldn't be valid. I guess the difficulty here is that with being non practicing there could be an imperfect intent with the vows, just from not having the same views as the Church... However knowing my friend I don't think she would intend to marry only temporarily and I think she would want to have children - just from my point of view. She's a very close friend.

It does make me sad though that the Holy Eucharist might be received by the bride and groom without being practising Catholics. I don't know what would happen with Confession. I guess I'd keep praying for my friend to open up to her faith. I don't know how often they do a Sacramental Church wedding without a Mass. I guess it would be up to the priest. Because it would be a Church wedding, if it happens, and neither of them have ever been married and there are no obvious things to invalidate it, it is something that could be supported in itself, but at the same time I don't know how I'd feel going to a wedding where there's a possibility of the Eucharist being received without an amendment of life. I guess the priest would hopefully talk to the couple about that.. Maybe the preparation could at times be used by God to grant a deeper conversion I don't know. Receiving without amendment of life is very serious. I'm not trying to judge my friends soul but I just know of her disagreements with major Church teachings. Maybe if they ever get engaged I'll talk to my priest about how to approach the situation. 

[CatherineM]

Priests marry people everyday who aren't practicing and just doing it for mom or grandparents. Saw bunches when I worked in the tribunal. They do it because they're too tired to fight it, they don't want parishioners leaving or causing strife in the parish and/or they're hoping for the best. I have seen long term, financially important parishioners leave the parish or the church over not letting their kids get married or grandchild baptized. It's sad and unnecessary, but all too human. 

[Kevin]

 I guess you should be glad that at least your friends can just go through the motions, get married, and then go right back to being lapsed Catholics, and their marriage will still be perfectly valid, while if they had consciously chosen to leave the Church and joined a Protestant Church which they attended diligently and never went anywhere without a Bible, they'd still be doing nothing but fornicating in the eyes of the Church---oh, unless of course they left the Church between 1983 and 2009 and made a formal notice of defection (because the Church just changes these sorts of rules when it feels like it, so sometimes you don't get lucky in that matter).

11 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

It does make me sad though that the Holy Eucharist might be received by the bride and groom without being practising Catholics. I don't know what would happen with Confession. I guess I'd keep praying for my friend to open up to her faith. I don't know how often they do a Sacramental Church wedding without a Mass. I guess it would be up to the priest. Because it would be a Church wedding, if it happens, and neither of them have ever been married and there are no obvious things to invalidate it, it is something that could be supported in itself, but at the same time I don't know how I'd feel going to a wedding where there's a possibility of the Eucharist being received without an amendment of life. I guess the priest would hopefully talk to the couple about that.. Maybe the preparation could at times be used by God to grant a deeper conversion I don't know. Receiving without amendment of life is very serious. I'm not trying to judge my friends soul but I just know of her disagreements with major Church teachings. Maybe if they ever get engaged I'll talk to my priest about how to approach the situation. 

Yes, isn't it lovely that the Church will gladly recognize the marriage of your friends who don't really care about the Church or Christ at all outside of pleasing their parents, as long as they're married in a Church by a priest who is likewise probably just doing it to please the family? Isn't the way the canon law is set up in just a just and equitable way great?

Edited December 21, 2015 by Kevin

[Nihil Obstat]

Salty.

[veritasluxmea]

Like my popcorn 

[Maggyie]

Well MLF, your really don't need to worry about possibly attending a wedding where the Eucharist is received unworthily.  Because unless you have the gift of reading souls you won't know the state of the souls of the couple at that moment. No need to go all Shiite Catholic. 

[veritasluxmea]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

 I guess you should be glad that at least your friends can just go through the motions, get married, and then go right back to being lapsed Catholics, and their marriage will still be perfectly valid

Actually it probably wouldn't and if they broke up later on they could easily get an annulment

[vee]

My sister and bro in law did this. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

I actually don't think it's such a bad thing if lapsed Catholics just "go through the motions" for a Church wedding. Obviously, the ideal would be that all baptized Catholics fully appreciate the sacrament and be fervent in their faith. But in the fallen world we live in, it's much more conducive for lapsed Catholics' eventual "reversion" if they are at least in a valid, lawful marriage, as opposed to an irregular marriage situation or a cohabitation arrangement. 

Also, a "let's get married in the Church to make grandma happy" Church wedding isn't necessarily more likely to be invalid. The bar for what counts as a valid marriage is actually much lower than people here would seem to think. A couple doesn't need to understand all the deep theological significance of the sacrament of matrimony; they just have to have the intention to be married in only the most basic sense in which the Church understands marriage. I.e., they just have to intend and consent to a life-long, exclusive union which is open to new life. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

1 hour ago, Maggyie said:

Well MLF, your really don't need to worry about possibly attending a wedding where the Eucharist is received unworthily.  Because unless you have the gift of reading souls you won't know the state of the souls of the couple at that moment. No need to go all Shiite Catholic. 

I don't know others souls but i don't think its judgemental to be concerned if friends are receiving Communion when you know they have views different from the Church. Judging would be trying to figure out their intent, level of ignorance/knowledge, and other interior things known only to God. 

[veritasluxmea]

 

whoops meant to post that in my vine thread

[MarysLittleFlower]

3 hours ago, Kevin said:

 I guess you should be glad that at least your friends can just go through the motions, get married, and then go right back to being lapsed Catholics, and their marriage will still be perfectly valid, while if they had consciously chosen to leave the Church and joined a Protestant Church which they attended diligently and never went anywhere without a Bible, they'd still be doing nothing but fornicating in the eyes of the Church---oh, unless of course they left the Church between 1983 and 2009 and made a formal notice of defection (because the Church just changes these sorts of rules when it feels like it, so sometimes you don't get lucky in that matter).

Yes, isn't it lovely that the Church will gladly recognize the marriage of your friends who don't really care about the Church or Christ at all outside of pleasing their parents, as long as they're married in a Church by a priest who is likewise probably just doing it to please the family? Isn't the way the canon law is set up in just a just and equitable way great?

Kevin I think its best you talk to a good priest about your struggles. I'm not interested in having a debate on this thread. I am concerned about my friends salvation - even in a valid marriage, and I don't want for her to keep being a lapsed Catholic but to discover the faith. I'd be glad if her marriage is valid but i want her to go further and find her faith.

Being lapsed or leaving the Church are both serious. The Church is not an institution but the Mystical Body of Christ. Any graces of faith in Christ that Protestants have are still from the Catholic Church, but they need to accept the fullness of truth. Being non practicing is serious in that the person may not have a faith in Christ to begin with so they'd need to discover that too. 

As for canon law its not my job to judge the Church's canon law, and we need to respect not only dogmas but laws too because the Church has authority to make them. If something changed like that rule you mentioned, maybe it needed to. 

We need to follow the Church, not think we can judge it. That's putting ourselves over the Church and wouldn't lead us in the right way. Its not being a "blind sheep", its seeking humility of heart. The Church can make laws, it can't change doctrines though, and as for how laws change that's not up to us. We just need to work out our salvation not get distracted and worried over all these things. It can be a huge distraction. 

Our job is to seek holiness. Seek first His Kingdom and the rest will be added to you. His Kingdom starts in the heart. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

You are worried and concerned about all the laws.. It is making you agitated and taking away your peace. Laws are the Church's job not ours. We wouldn't go wrong just by seeking God by putting His Will first, working out our salvation and becoming a saint, - all the rest would be added and others would receive more graces through us as well. We can help people much more that way. His Kingdom starts in the heart and then radiates to others, as I understand. If we keep peace in our heart it would help others more. God is not free to work as much when we are so anxious and upset. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Kevin]

4 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

a "let's get married in the Church to make grandma happy" Church wedding isn't necessarily more likely to be invalid. The bar for what counts as a valid marriage is actually much lower than people here would seem to think. A couple doesn't need to understand all the deep theological significance of the sacrament of matrimony; they just have to have the intention to be married in only the most basic sense in which the Church understands marriage. I.e., they just have to intend and consent to a life-long, exclusive union which is open to new life. 

The bar isn't "high", rather, it's a completely arbitrary. It's like an obstacle course where the judges change the rules whenever they feel like on a whim---like, they see a guy with a haircut they don't like, so they disqualify him. He asks, what does my hair have to do with this obstacle course? And then he notices another guy with the same haircut as him doesn't get disqualified---he was born and raised with that kind of haircut, but you we know you were born and raised with a normal haircut, so your required to run this race with that haircut. And again he asks, what on Earth does my haircut have to do with running an obstacle course? And he gets the same answer.

3 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

Kevin I think its best you talk to a good priest about your struggles. I'm not interested in having a debate on this thread. I am concerned about my friends salvation - even in a valid marriage, and I don't want for her to keep being a lapsed Catholic but to discover the faith. I'd be glad if her marriage is valid but i want her to go further and find her faith.

Well, if you know for a fact that your friend doesn't intend to mend his/her ways and rejoin the Church, there's no way there marriage is valid, surely you must realize this? It would be no different than if someone who had converted to Protestantism pretended to not have converted for her family's sake and got married in a Catholic Church only to go back to being a Protestant. There's no way an annulment court wouldn't say that marriage was entered upon in good faith.

Really, by your own logic, aren't you scandalizing everyone around you by continuing to associate with this person? Doesn't it make it seem to them like you approve of the relationship they have? If they aren't actively Catholic, that means any kind of relationship they are developing is almost certainly sinful, as those baptized in the Church have to remain in the Church, or nothing they do can possibly be chaste? Shouldn't you tell this person they need to come back to the Church or you will cut ties with them for fear of causing a scandal and then pray for their conversion? I think that's the only consistent thing you can do if you believe the Church and its canonical ruling are always just and right.

[Kevin]

6 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Salty.

Wow, really, thank you for that charitable response.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Kevin

[Guest]

Kevin can you explain to me what you were talking about in the other thread and this one? I was sorta confused. The Church taught something infallibly then changed? Is that possible?

[Papist]

7 hours ago, Maggyie said:

Well MLF, your really don't need to worry about possibly attending a wedding where the Eucharist is received unworthily.  Because unless you have the gift of reading souls you won't know the state of the souls of the couple at that moment. No need to go all Shiite Catholic. 

If a Catholic friend of yours told you he/she does not attend Mass intentionally. Then one day attends with you, would you instruct that he/she ought to refrain from receiving Communion?  Why?